Why Hung Gar? Need advice...

[DimitryK]

Hello to you good people of this wonderful site. I have seen an incredible amount of talk around here with absolutely incredible information and generous feedback from everyone. I have some dilemmas going on in my head and maybe I can hear some talks here from you guys that might be able to help me solve this.

I want to first give some background to myself. I am currently 22 years old, but I have been involved in Martial Arts since around the age of 8. That was when I got jumped by several much older kids and my parents then decided I should start learning how to defend myself. The school that was next to us was an excellent School of Kyokushinkai Karate, with a wonderful teacher, excellent and seriously tough practices that would be 3 times a week and were 2 hours every time. At the age of 11 I had my first competitions.

Nearly on my 12th B-Day I immigrated to Canada. I had about a year pause while adapting to the new country, but soon found a new school which was a Kempo Karate school. It was very interesting as there was a lot of stress on not just sparring, but also self defence. Training was ok, I got to compete in Canadian Nationals, got some nice places, but that was about it. All this experience lasted till about the time I was 17. At that point I moved yet again, but within the city, and was unable to go to my gym any longer, so I started with regular workouts in the gym, going quite seriously into it, while trying not to forget what I have learned from previous places.

At 19 I finished my college and moved to work for a company in Germany. Been living here for nearly 3 years, and since arriving here got involved in learning Hung Gar.

Now 3 years down the line, and I find myself a little bit at a loss emotionally and philosophically. I have been training hard, and I always have as I truly love Martial Arts, and being involved with them for nearly 14 years now I have no initiative in giving up. But I have some fears and doubts crawling into my head.

As many of us noticed, a huge spike in the interest has popped up in UFC and general Mixed Martial Arts (MMA). We all witness these individuals practicing hard to fight in the ring and do whatever it is they do. Yes, we all say that they have rules. And also, how many of us are indeed willing to put our brains on the line of being knocked out almost weekly while loosing brain cells and pretty much seriously damaging ourselves? I know I do not, but I want to be able to practice at some level and as it is a Martial Art, I do take some consideration that I will receive damage, but it will be for a purpose, for discipline, for education, for the ability to withstand a much more painful consequence that might arise at some point, or maybe even help someone else to avoid it later as well. But one thing I do have to say is, these MMA competitions have much less rules then any other fights out there. And one has to agree, MMA is very effective combat material, and it has proved it many times. And yet we have never seen any real proof from any form of Chinese Martial Arts that has been able to withstand the test of such a competition.

Now I want to clarify that I understand quite well the values that are held within our practices in Chinese Martial Arts (I can call it kung fu, but to be fair, it really does only mean "Hard Work":) ). Many things in our practices are focused on health, endurance, conditioning. But why do we do it? We often train the forms, then break them down into practical moves, where they are supposed to be used for actual encounters. But then we rarely actually spar! And even if we do, we spar with multiple layers of equipment, often limiting ourselves from the ability to grapple, grab, or do much of whatever it is that we learned. Of course some of our techniques are for weaker points, but it is not every one of them.

Pavel Macek’s school so far has been the only school that I saw some pretty interesting sparring at. It seemed like something much closer to what is done in MMA, and the only reason I bring MMA into this is the reality of their battles. But (and please, PM, I respect very highly any school that has put as much dedication as you did into yours, and into your students and yourself, and I mean absolutely no disrespect) from what has been shownin the videos, the fighters felt uncoordinated in the actual process, it didn’t feel like the things we often learned were effectively used, i.e. the philosophical approach to a battle that Hung Gar holds: end the fight with minimal amount of energy. I guess my point is, I always have heard of many many masters being of really high levels, and yet, I have never seen a real, and I mean a REAL fight between a true master and someone else. One where you can seriously see the danger and ability one possesses.

What this boils down to is, I want to understand somehow if what we are taught indeed is as powerful as we are often told to believe. Again, to avoid any confusion, I wish not to attack, but to reinforce my own belief in a system to which I wish to be dedicated. And indeed, I wish to be dedicated deeply, if I can find the confidence I seek in it. There was a saying in one of the books I have by Wong Kiew Kit ( ) where he said that whenever you choose a master, test them. I am selecting a possible system to which I am inclined and tempted to become very seriously dedicated to, but I have come to see things which force me to feel uncomfortable.

And now I call to you guys, everyone who will have the will to read through everything I wrote here, please, let me know if you had similar experiences, and how did you go about overcoming them. I see incredible possibilities that we often describe in what is practiced. I see demos, I see feats of strength. But how come our Martial art has never defended it’s true title as being a Martial one? I am willing to expand a lot more on my thoughts and philosophies, but I do not want to bore many of you. I very much hope this post will be understood correctly and not taken as an insult for I do not mean one. Again, Pavel Macek, with every possible bit of respect, I hope you do consider my words harmless and only as an observation that I have witnessed.

Thank you guys in advance if you read through all this and will write me back! I greatly appreciate your time!

With all the respect,

Dimitry

[PM]

zdrastvuy, Dyma nice to see a fellow Slavic soul on the forum

long post with may interesting thoughts. well, a lot of things that were on my head (and still are)

comment about our saan da sessions: well, you were watching kids and beginners to free fighting, using just some of the basic stuff from our arsenal. no excuse, just fact, believe me i see much more flaws than you do, ha ha. more than A LOT of room for improvement, so any constructive criticism is welcomed!

important thing is: fighting is fighting, many things can come close to that, but still, just close. we have many different ways of free fighting training, the footage and 99% of the training sessions are aimed to learn something, not "win" - and that makes the difference. reality based self defense free fighting drills we do are different game - one on one, two on one, more on one, attackers with batons/rubber knives...

so or so, it does not look "nice". sets, sparring sets, application drills etc. do, free fighting does not. the more techniques and more contact is allowed, the less nice it looks - not only in Hung Kyun in our school, but any other martial art. i can post beautiful looking vids of 50% speed sparring without any gear, using all the techniques you wish, but make it 90% and the game changes - one strike can end all. i am a fan of UFC and similar events, if you watch it, you see pros throwing uncoordinated punches, hands down, sloppy kicks, a lot of unefficient rolling on the floor - and these these guys are one of the best technicians and athletes in the world, not 3-4 times a week guys training for some self defense and fun.

my guys go on, some time ago we had an intensive sparring sessions with a Muay Thai coach, friend of mine, CLF/WCH friend and a MMA friend (all more then half a dozen or more years under their belt) and i was happy to see my guys to improve and be able to face much more advanced and skilfull opponents without any fear and shame. we ate some punches, delivered some punches, well, that is the game, daily bread and butter of the guy who trains for fighting. more techniqes are added, especially the palm techniques, short bridges and some of long bridges (just recently on our spring training camp, one of my students scored 3 times in a row with a chat sing lin waan cheui combo - he has tried it so many times and no luck, but this time he tried to do it full speed, full power, with the intent to hurt and maim, and it worked perfectly)

stories and deadly techniqes are great, but we shpuld all face the reality and not live in a dream. Hung Kyun is not a Shaw Brothers movie, same goes for any other gf system or any other style. Hung Kyun is as good in fighting as is the guy who fights. if he trains wise and hard, he will be succeful, if he trains just hard, he will not. there are no miracles, no secret techniques, no secret skills, just methodical and hard work.

to answer your question, yes, i had and have similar experiences, both as practitioner and teacher. luckyli, now as a teacher, i can do something about it - and i do. if a guy comes to my school to have a sparring session, i can easily pick up eight ten or more guys and sy, ok, who first? adn we will not compare our fu hok seung ying or measure our forearms.

bottom line- if the school you train in and the sifu is good, he will answer all these questions to you. if not, look somewhere else, and do not waste any more time. you already have a lot of martial arts and sports, so i am sure you know what you are looking for, more or less. there are not many Hung Kyun schools i would have like to train in.

last but not least - there is so much other things in Hung Kyun for me. people who want to go boxing or MMA, they should go boxing or MMA, and not waste their time training a traditional martial art.

all the best, looking forward to hear from you and others; i will post more vids soon, discuss the previous vids in the "Partner Exercises - " section, please

[Yogicmotion]

Well put Pavel!

It is VERY different when the fighting is more real. I think people get the misconception that watching a Kung fu fighter will be like (as Pavel puts it) watch a Shaw Bros film.

As to Hung gar being applied in MMA, it can be done. Palm strikes are devastating when used. Though not a Hung gar player,Bas Ratten used them alot. When I spar with my MMA buddies, they hate my forearms! The forearm conditioning is also great for ground and pound. The counter attacking in Hung gar is very effective with a little practice.

If you want to use Hung gar in that format, find some buddies who are into it, put some gloves on and start to experiment. I could be a real learning experience. Just remember real fighting is not pretty.

It might be helpful to figure out what do you want out of your martial art? Fighting, forms, health?

[DimitryK]

Hey Guys! Thanks a lot for taking the time and responding.

@Yogicmotion: I would have to say it is Fighting, Health, discipline, conditioning, confidence... Many more really, it is not that black and white. I have to say that I came to the conclusion just like the one you said: find some people, and try it all out.

Just to be clear, I never expected it to be like in movies, but I would compare it to my previous practices, where the things you practice are heavily influencing your fighting. I trained with some people who have had very good teachers (specifically Gabriel Soler from Spain and his student Hose Pinto). And these guys are tough. And we have sparred, and it was quite amazing.

Either way, I think I got what I really needed to hear, and the rest is dealing with many of my own questions and finding answers to the best of my ability. Again, huge thanks for the replies!

[crazedjustice888]

Well I am still a noob in the art, but I train under David Chin with Hop Ga and Omar Harvin with Hung Gar. Chin Sifu teaches us LOTS of drills, we can't even SEE the form until about a year of training is under our belts. Harvin Sifu is different. We train forms then IMMEDIATELY get into the ring. We don't use ANY pads and we go full force. Obviously some techniques are not allowed, but I have still been hit in the balls and gotten a long arm technique to the face...lol It all comes down to how you train and who is your sifu as you and the others have said. I am blessed to have such a wonderful and REAL life experience every time we train.

I will leave you with this. One training day, I was sparring with a classmate and he sweeped me, my knee almost snapped and EVERYONE saw it. My sifu immediately got up and came over to me asking if I was okay. I was in pain but alright, he proceeded to tell me to walk it off. I did...for ten minutes...then I heard this...BACK IN THE RING WILL!!! Ugh...

So yeah...

[PM]

crazedjustice888: lucky you, all i hear about Chin sifu is praise. today i talked on the phone with my sihing Daifong here form the forum, and he has said that Chin sifu stil trains hell of the fighters. next tine i am in the USA i definitely want to visit him and pay him my respect.

important! whoever of you TCMA guys trains fighting, please shoot a video, upload it, promote the traditional Chinese MARTIAL arts. to see one time is better than hear a thousand time.

[crazedjustice888]

Thank you sir. Yes, we walk punches for about an hour each time...I am going there again tonight...lol

I would, but Harvin Sifu (full contact, no pads) doesn't like videos of us training. I will talk to him though.

[DimitryK]

I would really love it if more schools would open more to the visual information. It truly is rare, and one who is trying to hunt down some school that they would love to attend, something like that would be an incredible resource and would help much much more to prove to those putting Hung Gar and teh rest of Chinese Martial arts down. I personally would be incredibly inspired to see more application demos, and not the ones that show orderly punches, but ones that show techniques in action, in a full contact fight.

Thanks guys! This is inspirational, and gives much hope. I have found Hung Gar as a truly remarkable Martial Art. It is great when you see it backed up by great people.

I look forward to more vids guys! Thank you!

[Mig]

Great posting and responses. I feel your hesitation when I was your age and considering we didn't have MMA at that time, indeed we had street fighting. You have the motivation and this is the most important in keeping training and moving to the next level. As for the real world, remember that we are not created equal and our way of reacting in real life against difficult situations can not be as predictable as they show in demos. Start knowing yourself and make the best you are so you can feel confident in training and applyng what you learn. In my previous posting about sparring and brawl I mentioned the lack of techniques applied in real fighting as mostly of sparring or kumite is basically punches as in boxing, kicks as in street fightings and less what you practice everyday or what you know. Again, your confidence and applying your art makes the master of yourself. I see the JKD, applies well when this type of situation happens.
Once again great answers and looking forward in reading more opinions.

Mig

[Chunyat]

[Asmo]

[DimitryK]

[Asmo]

[Harutomo]

[Chunyat]