rules of Hung Kyun Saan Da fullcontact sparring

[shuen]

[Asmo]

[TenTigers]

[shuen]

[vaulander]

[PM]

shuen:

- points make imho the whole thing kind of complicated (look at shotokan kumite).
- i think it is much more obvious who is better in a fighting bout than in a sets competition
- i would also avoid unlimited time for round, as the fighters will either wait to long (and you cannot tell the, fight guys, fight all the time), or just exhausted with no power hit each other. do you remember first UFC fights? some of the took loooooong, and it was not always because of groudfighting.
- for a friendly match, draw is not a big deal. in our school, we never decide winner or looser, everybody knows after the fight what is his place in a food chain

also, i think you look at the sparring a lot from a technical point of view. sure, axe kick is not exactly Hung Kyun, but most important is the skill, not the technique. guy who fights nice and clear HK could loose in the real fight (no guts, no power, no speed, just evades and blocks, does not counter). ppl think that a Hung Kyun fight will ook like a Shaw Brothers movie - no, it will not. but there should be stances, footwork, bridges and power - that is HK.

so, i suggest:

- 1 three minutes round (good training for street, you just have to explode and beat the shit out of the other guy(s))
- you cannot be innactive for more than 10 seconds
- no more than 10 seconds on the ground or in the clinch
- no more than 2 times per round on the ground
- no points
- victory awarded to
a) person who dominates (decided by 3 judges)
b) person who KOs the other guy
c) of course TKO, or if you comit foul (or 2 fouls - something like first warning, second foul and u r out)
- if it is a draw, second round (how many minutes?), if it is a draw too, let it be like that

vaulander: tournament, why no, but this is not so important right now, the personal test/experience is the thing. i must admit, this you first post i really, really like all the best to you!

check this guys, this is something quite close to my idea:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HGbtvrS89M[/youtube]

(thnx to one of my friend who pointed me to the rules of this art)

[vaulander]

[PM]

[PM]

ok guys, some more footage:

Hung Kyun Free Fighting (洪拳散打), my students Ondra (14) vs. Honza (13) - their first full-contact match ever, using basic techniques Hung kyun techniques and skills: Stances (sei ping baat fan ma, ji ng ma, diu geuk ma... ), footwork (biu ma, jeun ma, teui ma... ), strikes (jin cheui, ping cheui, kam cheui, tung tin cheui... ), kicks (chaang geuk), blocks (waang kiu, paau jaang, bik jaang... ). Both kids train Hung Kyun for cca. 1 year. enjoy! let's see them in 2 years

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBmBvwQKZws[/youtube]

[I am]

[laukarfei]

[vaulander]

[Subitai]

Wow, really impressive topic PM.
I am pleasantly surprised at some of the things you wrote, great ideas!

I think it's great that you're getting your students to get in there and Bang around...I think those experiences are what will make them tougher and fearless. I think all of us perhaps started that way or should have and then would have to move on to better ideals.

I also kinda side with what Ten said about "people just knowing " and also what Asmo said on page one.

You wanted opinions, so here goes:

Fighting like in your video is only one aspect but not what HK should aspire to...Not in my opinion. It' just sparring / training.

It's sparring and by nature of such, after the fighters close the gap...they seperate and give eachother room to move.

I think it's NICE that people want to fight (but not hurt eachother too bad) but the fact is... Most modern students avoid it, because YOU GET HURT. No way around it.

Now, whenever someone asks me to spar. If I say yes, it goes down like this: We square off, there is an initial exchange but once the gap is closed, I stick to that bastard like a octopus. Hung Kuen has so much cool stuff you can use up close. If I make my bridge, it's up to him to stop me from using Hung kuen up close but I will not give him the space to go at me for free. I don't give no breaks and no chance to friendly seperate.

Then sometimes they say, " Ok that was good, but lets start over.....Lets just sparr" What they are REALLY saying is: "You keep your distance so I can hit you".
NO WAY!! That guy get's one chance, one session , as a Sifu, I will not give someone a chance to embarass me in front of my students. Screw that, you have to EARN your way to hit me....That's real Hung Kuen, not Backing away and letting the guy start over.

It's like 2 homeboys street boxing or just Slap boxing, if you do it long enough that way, BOTH always take some damage.


Same reason why grapplers whooped up on people who like to SPAR like this and they still do so. When a grappler closes the gap, he's just getting started. In his mind, to seperate again would be to HIS Disadvantage.



I went to a real Fight Club in San Jose once:

6 guys showed up....
Nobody could just watch... if you came you had to fight. Everyone had to fight everyone.
We didn't do it exactly like the movie however, we did have some rules.
No hitting in the Neck or face...Because we all have to work at jobs the next day and didn't want to have messed up faces.

Other than that, EVERYTHING goes, NO Gloves, No pads.

This was after my experiences in the octagon and shan shou, the lessons I learned and from what worked and what didn't shaped me greatly. I had an epiphany shortly after and all my training up to now has been a direct result of those experiences.

So it's a long way to say this,

I would rather fight some guys open hands only mabe, (NOT try to draw blood with knuckles) but everything else goes: Locks, kicks, sweeps, throws and such. As Ten said earlier, "Both fighters always know who dominated" Let it play to the finish, just like the BJJ guys. They train like they fight and vice versa. Or at the very least, if you're smart, you'll quit and acknowledge that your beat before you get really hurt. It's just that simple.



"O"

[PM]

i am: thank you for your comment. yeah, they stucked to their game, i am happy to see that. no wild swinging around, they are using what they have been drilling, very important! our approach is: it is better to have a limited arsenal first which allows you to have some sparring, even on a simple level, than to be lost in dozens of techniques an concepts. our free fighting syllabus is very well structured and methodical, from simple things to intermediate and advanced.

as for the threading kick, i teach is as a fundamental kicking - naturall, easy to use, and great set up for other techniques. well, we also work a lot on our tiger tail on the basic level, but the kids did not throw any fu mei geuk in their fight (you can hear me shouting on the video, fu mei geuk, fu mei geuk!)

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laukarfei: agreed! we will work 3 more months on some other stuff (more palm strikes, more clinch defense, elbows, knees, sweep/reverse sweep etc.) - right now they are working just on the basic level. and then i will throw them in sparring with kids doing some other stuff (boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, karate, judo.. well, got to find some parents who let their kids to do such games. i wish i have more kids like this)

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vaulander: in drills we kick to the knees (not full power), in sparring to the thigh. good thing is a) they have protectve gear b) in their age the punching/kicking power is still not so devastative, so not a big risk of serious injury.

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Subitai:

great post, we were all waiting for you to jump in, where have you been so long?

i cannot help but agree with you about the sparring trap vs. fighting; that is why i have suggested only 1 round, no hesitating and waiting - "i got couple of more rounds, let's wait until the guy gets tired, i will score some points" - no no no.

we should stick to one of our main principles: when the bridge comes, cross it, when a horse comes, shoot in" (or, as another version of the maxim goes "if the bridge leaves, flow with the water"). the key is to combine our long bridges (fiercesness, evasion, interception, penetration) with the short bridges game.

of course, there are always pros/contras - that is why we have to train our standing grappling/antigrappling skills, clinching etc., as i have written in the other thread.

looking forward to read more from you and of course otehr guys on the topic!

[Subitai]