Kungs / skills / feats of strength are they needed?

[ginosifu]

We all have read about or seen videos of or even practiced ourselves, those skills of legend. Iron Hand, Fingers that can break through a watermelon, walking along the edge of a bamboo basket, Iron Body, Dim Mak, fingers that can break a walnut etc etc etc.

In todays modern society the average person does not have the time to invest in these type of specialty skills. As teachers do you feel the need to teach these skills to the average person? In my personal experience, to truly master these skills a person needs to spend 2-3 daily practice sessions (morning, noon and night), 7 days a week, 365 days a year for a minimum of 5-10 years for each skill.

I have been training for over 20 years and all of my teachers have expressed the fact they have spent this amount of time perfecting their skills.

If you are a sifu, then I think you should spend time to perfect whatever skills you have. However, I feel that the average student can not or will not spend the time needed to perfect these specialty skills.

Your thoughts

ginosifu

[Asmo]

To truly understand kungfu I think at some point a student should pick a skill and work it up to a point where he can understand what the definition of kungfu is.

I did iron palm for about three years. I disagree that needs to be done three times a day 7 days a week. In fact, I'm pretty sure that would've damaged my hands... Right now aside from the odd bruise I never experienced problems. After some time I was able to break bricks using "internal force", not forcing my way through.

Currently due to kids and neighbors I cant do the practice anymore, but at least I know what kind of dedication is required to be able to achieve something like that. Also I know that when I want to, I can achieve anything, I just need to set myself to it. For me, that's worth practicing such skills already.

Its a bit busy here so I probably written or worded something a little different then I should have so certain people will probably pick me apart again

[ginosifu]

Asmo,
I am not saying what you did does have any value, but look at Northern Shaolin Master Ku Ye Cheong... they say he slapped a horse and ruptured its internal organs. I wrote on another forum about IP:

Iron Palm is one of the Kung's (功) or Skills in Chinese "Kung Fu". These can vary from IP to Jumping skill to climbing walls, to poking your fingers thru watermelons etc etc. Excelling in one of these skills might have been the key to your survival 300 years ago. One of the downfalls of this might have been sacrificing time to do the training, disfigurement of body parts, sacrificing other skills to perfect this one. I do not think people of today are willing to sacrifice anything for these skills.

I have been doing Iron Palm for 15 years now. 3 times a day 7 days a week 365 a year. Granted there have been times when I could not hit (traveling / knee surgery / getting married etc etc) but I have kept true to my practice. My family time has suffered, but they understand. The only way to achieve any high level of skill is thru diligent practice. My experience with modern students is that their life style does not allow most average person the time / energy to reach any higher than a basic skill. I tried to force all my students to hit during class time, hoping it would develop into a daily habit. After years of frustration I have come to the conclusion that the average person does not care or does have the time or does not want to put the time into developing this skill.

Hitting bags of beans or gravel or steel shot is nothing more than hardening / thickening your hands to hit hard and to take a hit without injury. True Iron Palm takes years of learning how to deliver and transmit power to your hands. Bringing chi / qi or energy to the hands is also a high level aspect of IP. Without the deeper aspects of IP you just have hard hands.

Asmo, to work on a skill here and there is ok, but to truly master it, one needs to sacrifice time and energy yo really experience the true skill. I spent 8 years working on my Fu Jow (Tiger Claw) and gripping skill by doing jar catching, wrist curls, finger tip push ups etc etc in serious non stop program that about 2 hours daily practice ! Even to this day people that fought me, tell me that I have a death grip of steel.

So I go back to my question: Do we teach these skills to the average person knowing that 99% are not going to ever complete the training.

[Frank Bolte]

I dont think think this is something you can teach,this is something one have to do by oneself...u can teach ur student how to punch,block,kick etc..teach him the principles of a style..but to learn a special skill and train it for years thats something nobody can help you (apart from giving advices but those given advices gotta be from someone who actually did it)...this is something you gotta do by yourself...

[Asmo]

[ginosifu]

[Subitai]

Hi Gino...

This is a topic very dear to me. It's something that I talk about allot with my students and to people in martial arts.

In fact, something happened to me 12 yrs ago now that was a catalyst in changing my training regime forever.

( I think i've told this before though)

I wanted to develop 3 strikes for maximum power...from very short geng range.

The goal was to be able to completely knock a 200lb HVY bag off it's 4 hanging chains with a single strike onto the floor. Very hard to do from up close. It was a PRO Everlast Bag...Horse or cow Hide Skin and very densely compacted...like TIGHT Sand or similar. This bag would break or strain most people's wrists if they lacked proper basic.

It took me many many months and thousands of strikes to achieve 3 Special Gong Strikes. I actually did it, BUT>>>>>>>>>>

At the same time, I as also into doing fight clubs in San Jose. It was in a dudes garage. Black Belts only...No spectators, if you come, you HAVE to fight. Our only rules was No attacking the Neck or Face, cause it was Sundays and you had to work the next day and couldn't come in looking all jacked up. Otherwise it was no holds barred.

So, now your wondering...how did I do? Very well, but I was not able to use any of my 3 deadly strikes. Only when I relied back to simple direct pure power and simple technique, I could succeed. Like the saying goes... "the more advanced you are, the more simple you are in application. "

Days latter, I was interested in getting my sifu's take on the entire experience... I showed him my power and succeed in making the hvy bag fly off onto the ground.

Then my sifu says to me... "You have really strong bullets, but I wonder how good is your gun?"

Wow, It took me a minute to process what he meant. From that moment untill now...the very essence of all my training is to develop the GUN.

It's one of the main reasons why I enjoy touching hands (friendly) with just about anyone willing to. It helps me to gauge how good my gun is.

What my methods are and how I apply them in a modern sense, especially in todays MMA world is my own specialty. Which I guard very closely and don't share to much...it's the only thing that sets me apart from all the SHEEP followers copying Hung Gar but they don't really understand the art deeply... they are just parrots. Parrots can only apply when you attack a certain way, the way they are used to. Other than that, they can't adapt.

I love old school H.G. and I still do it as much as possible (mostly gong training, drilling, application, forms and such) but how I apply is old school but adjusted to a modern FLARE.

Anybody who has met me and spent some time exchanging with me knows I can apply.

So in a nutshell, that's my GONG...training my GUN... which is to develop my abilty to apply H.G. versus as many different body types and awkward situations as I can come across.

Like I've said before, I HAVE TOO, cause i'm not a famous old Chinese guy that nobody will challenge.

[Subitai]

Also,

Size or mass makes a big difference, albeit even if skill is equal.


If for example your at least 200lbs or heavier. I call it "The 2+ club". You basically have enough mass and power with normal Kung Fu training and proper waist snap to deal good damage.

In other words, when your bigger, you have more of a reserve and can afford to not be hitting with all your power...and still do damage

Smaller guys...can't afford to be off their game as much.
I notice that the smaller guys ( like 130lbs) are usually a little more feisty and usually have to spend extra time developing a seperate Gong for their striking for example.


If a 200 lb dude strikes only with 50% of his wieght/skill and the 130lb dude does also. It really matters.

Plus you have to be able to hit effectively to overcome a guys adrenaline rush as well. Not always but ya sometimes.

Ok, ok, it's only a small example about striking.

Just a thought,

Even if you have a powerfull strike (bullet)...it will not help if you don't have the skills (Gun) to land it.

It's not like you opponant is going to let you set up and smack him one for free!

[vaulander]

You are right about the small guys, Subitai. I'll never be a heavy weight, or even welterweight, as my size is about 68 kg. Of course through the years in Martial arts of various kinds I always tend to be set against taller and heavier guys. My strategy basically puts me as the small Wolverine against big bear. One swipe can throw me across the field, so to speak. You pretty much have to blitz them to not get mauled. Since I can't rely on strength and mass to do the job, I have to rely on speed and technique, which truly sucks when you're up against someone as good or better. Good thing I still got my black belt in Runaway-jutsu, hehe.
V.

[Tid Sin]

"You have really strong bullets, but I wonder how good is your gun?"

Not adding anything to the discussion, just appreciating O's quote from his Sifu

[Subitai]

[vaulander]

[Daifong]

Such evident skills can be seen as 'dramatic', or even 'admirable', yet, unless the individual or the group has suffered extreme hardship and heavy personal losses, the foundational criteria for the proper quality of determination necessary to birth such skills will be essentially lacking...

In primitive societies, a 'War Chief' was necessary during times when the Chief's words of peace and reason were no longer of effect. The qualifications of a War Chief were, to have successfully conducted prior military operations, not the least importantly bringing back most of his men alive...

Today, a (relatively) 'comfortable' society can afford to view such skills (and necessary basic training) as a fitness option, a sporting option, or a means of allaying personal anxiety. As Bruce Lee once said, "they are not fighting, they are involved with doing something about fighting"...

Likewise, in this day of guns and high-tech warfare, with people mainly invested with such endeavors as can 'show results' (in a socially acceptable manner), such as the in the movies, the ring, at the belt-line, or for our children's self-esteem, such skills as WFH Sup Duk would seem only to be minimally transmissible at best, destined soon to gracefully give way to a golden age of untold ring skills, movies, beltlines, and children's self-esteem!



Best,

Michael

[ginosifu]

Thanks guys for the replys. Thanks "O" for input.
Your right about being able to apply whatever gung you have practiced. I do IP, if I can not apply any of what of I learned, what go is it?
Going back to my original question is should we as sifu teach old school gungs like IP or Iron Body? Or should we give them the beginnings of these gungs and just see how far they are wiling to go?

ginosifu

[Subitai]