vs double underhooks

[laukarfei]

[PM]

our approach in clinch and similar techniques counters is - base and positional control first, using your stance and footwork, then counter. do not allow him to bend you backwards, sink in to ji ng ma, step into his stance with one leg, and either double enveloping hands from top to bottom to break his hold, like from fhsyk (in frontal ji ng ma as described above)



or double sinking elbows, also to break his hold, like in tsk



not the lifting one, from bottom up, but sinking from top down (like downward elbow strike), like in this sequence, of course in the frontal ji ng ma





(tsk generally, being a short bridge, high stance, has many excellent counters against various types of clinch

follow with your favourite technique, i like gam gaai duk lap, straight knee to the groin right after the break up

- last note: sure not a good position to be in, if he is significantly stronger, heavier and has a good wrestling backround, that s it mate

- i would still bite in any of the close clinch position to soften up the opponent. does not matter where, just bite

- the info above is part of our anti-clich series, which includes defense about common Thai single/double clinch, various bearhugs, scarf hold, standing guillotine, arm drags, 50:50 clinch, underhooks/overhooks etc. skill not to be missed, fun to train!

[I am]

Where the head goes the body follows. If you cant swim through or break out of the underhooks, then break the structure by controlling the opponents head and spine. While doing this, if you have conditioned your hands, other options open up as well depending on how much you have decided you don't like the person.

The real question though I suppose would be how you allowed someone to get you in double underhooks with no counter set up in the first place. Context

[PM]

i am: the thing is, if he has you in "double underhook" he is controlling your structure/spine/central axis. can you be more specific how would you control his head/spine? maybe we should specify what type of underhook - high (as i have supposed), or more around the body, or low...

thanks!

looking forward to hear more from other Hung Kyun fighters

[Xiaobian]

Well one thing I learned in a low clinch is that as long as I get inbetween the opponent's head and clinch area, I can put my arms around the opponent's lower back, dig my chin into his/her collar, and jerk my arms up. If done seriously, it's rather painful and effective on the opponent's spine. Also, one arm around the opponent's lower back, and one on the head or (preferably) collar, and pull up on the lower spine and push out on the collar.

In a high underhooks, I would probably also go for something along the lines of what PM said, although since I don't trust my skill to break the clinch, I would probably focus on lowering my stance, and breaking/tripping the opponent's stance. Especially if s/he decides to immediately start throwing knees. Although, if his/her stance is also low, that could be problematic.

[I am]

[laukarfei]

[I am]

[PM]

[I am]

[Daifong]

What I think Laukarfei is saying is that it's gonna end up something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tf4tAv-Mfs

[laukarfei]

heh, well kind of. honestly i dont agree with i am and others, vs double underhooks doesnt mean certain doom at all, i know plenty of ways to deal with it and even at various levels of course but i wanted to hear from a chinese gung fu/HK perspective honestly i got almost exactly what i expected.

[I am]

I don't recall saying it was certain doom. My emphasis was that allowing your structure to be broken is bad news. Positional dominance and structural superiority are huge factors in being able to deploy any of ones weapons from my perspective.

[laukarfei]

"I don't recall saying it was certain doom. My emphasis was that allowing your structure to be broken is bad news. Positional dominance and structural superiority are huge factors in being able to deploy any of ones weapons from my perspective."

yea you did.

"The skill is in knowing when you are getting in trouble and nullifying it, not so much in escaping from certain doom"

you also likened it to getting choked out or put in a submission or getting rocked by a strike. which is far from reality.

positional dominance and structural superiority are huge factors but this isnt a perfect world and double underhooks is a powerful technique that is used often. comparing it to an armbar or a choke or something is not only inacurrate its also dismissive and shows a lack of perspective on the potential situation

[I am]

Again, speaking on escaping from certain doom is meant as a more general rule of thumb. Better to train to be mindful of what trouble you are getting into than to try and only counter bad scenarios. Much of combat has been and is still about concentration, having a fluid connection to the now, and acting without hesitation as you perceive.

Laukarfei, are you going to contribute your answers to the topic at hand as well? Do you have sport fighting experience, and if so, what have you found works for you?