ground techniques in HungKyun

[Mig]

I have been wondering why is the reason of not having ground techniques in Hungkyun as in Judo, jujitsu, shuaijiao or others martial arts. If qin na is incorporated in most of martial arts why not ground techniques. I just can not imagine that during those days when they fought against foreigners in the late 1800 they will also fight on the ground. Any insights or better ideas.

Best,

Mig

[Daifong]

In warfare, "The Enemy" was typically armed with knives, swords, spears, and travelled together in tactical units...

If you were a Warlord, and had actually caught a valiant opponent, once disarmed, you could put him in the pit against your favorite wrestler, see if he could make it out in one piece!

[Itinerant_Phenomenologist]

Maybe because rolling around on floating boats and soggy terrain wasn't considered tactically sound? I was always told that a fundamental rule in the southern systems was that if you couldn't stand then you couldn't fight. Obviously stand doesn't mean just two legs... just means firm root.

[Daifong]

I dunno...

I just saw Ong Bak II, and learned that Hung Kyun actually originated in Thailand!

[Asmo]

If you know a fight is 1 on 1 you can go to the ground if you fight better there... If there are others around, still standing up, it might be very counter productive...

But even if it just stays 1 on 1 its quite tricky imo.

Outside of sports environment, in real fighting circumstances if someone would try to floor me, I dont know but, can he try and take me down and at the same time defend himself from me grabbing his family jewels, poking his eyes, slapping his ears, grabbing his throat, bending his pinky, etc? There's too many openings to soft targets when your that close and have your arms around your opponent. Its one of those situations that can work great in sports with rules to defend those targets but are tricky in fights without rules.

But that said, no, I have not yet been in a real fight where I could test this idea of mine. I'm happy enough to live in a save environment. But I did tried this with a friend who turned MMA and it was an eye opener for him too (that said, he's a real fighter and no matter if he trains Hung Kuen, MMA or Tai Chi he would kick butt).

[Mig]

[PM]

[Mig]

[vaulander]

You might also compare a cage floor, judomats, and whatever else your training area has. Then do your training on concrete and asphalt with rocks and other random stuff.
You don't want to go down to the ground. If you do, get the hell up as fast as possible.

[Xiaobian]

I don't why everyone always brings up the whole "mats are different than concrete" argument. People train on mats because they don't cause long-term damage to be always falling on. No one TRAINS groundwork on concrete. I do iron back and other things on asphalt, so I'm used to it, but getting in the odd fight and rolling on the ground is different than training on it everyday.

If you are so soft that falling once on asphalt with small rocks messes you up, then you're not something something right. Certainly there are many ground techniques that can be well applied on the asphalt, just as long as the opponent cannot slam you or drag you.

In the long run, the ground isn't a place you want to be for long, but it shouldn't kill you to be on it. After all, JJ and BJJ people also have gongfu that they train for a specific purpose. Just because it's less healthy ( ) doesn't mean it's a terrible idea.

[Daifong]

Right...

Professor Anton Mohammed, a friend of mine who teaches Sanuces Ryu Arnis V-Jitsu/ "Urban Streetology", after carefully training his students on Dojo mats, holds all of his rank promotion tests on the sidewalk right out in front of his school...

After 2-4 years of training, one qualifying 3rd Kyu (brown belt) requirement of particularity involves the demonstrated ability to execute a "Front Free Atemi" off of the roof of a car...

In other words, a front flip from standing, into a completed breakfall onto the concrete surface below (previously swept clean, ok!)...

I recall one 3rd Kyu candidate who was happy to find that, after healing his separated shoulder, his brown belt was waiting for him back at the Dojo (he drove home from his test with one hand)!

Ok, no matter how good we are (perhaps especially "how good"), we must always maintain our vigilance against complacency...

If you find your best instincts telling you that, at 2-4 years training you may be "experiencing a deficit in the breakfall department", why not develop a training association with a friend who specializes, see if he can't help you tailor something standard so that it can fit your own specific set of needs?

I don't think that anyone wants to be known as "the guys who can usually keep to their feet, but can't fall down"!



Best,

Michael

[TenTigers]

I used to go to a school where the teacher never taught any type of breakfall techniques. My training brother and I, who have previously studied Jiu-Jutsu and Hapkido,were used to falling and we used to take each other down on the hard floor-much to the shock and awe of the other students. Any teeacher that neglects this aspect of training is doing a huge disservice to their students.
I always teach my students falls first. Front,rear, side and shoulder rolls. Just the basics. I tell them this:
"This is the most important lesson you will learn here. You may never get into a fight, but you will ALWAYS fall. These skills can save your life."

In Suht Gok (Shuai Jiao) quite often, the throw is a fight ender.
When I teach kids-falls, basic sweeps, reaps and simple throws. I would much rather have one of my kids drop someone and knock the wind out of them, than have their parents get sued because he took out the kids teeth with an elbow strike.

As far as ground techniques in Hung Ga? It soley depends on the teacher. We can take any technique and find any application, if you have a good imagination. It could be then argued that specific techniques never existed in the system, but that you have put them in there yourself.
Ok, but is that good or bad?
If I see the exact same movements in my Hung-Ga sets as I learned in grappling, so I teach them as an application-have I lessened my art, or deepened it?
And...who is to say?
If I see the ground scissor techniques in Butterfly Palms, and discuss how in doing those movements, you are learning how to manipulate yuor body and legs, which can lead into applying them as a defense from the mount, or a triangle choke out of those moves, am I lying?
Am I doing my students a disservice?
Or am I opening up their minds?
food for thought...

[I am]

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[Yogicmotion]