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NaamKyun.com Discussion Forum • View topic - Why Hung Gar? Need advice...

Why Hung Gar? Need advice...

"Old" Hung Kyun and "New" (Wong Feihung) Hung Kyun

Postby Harutomo » Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:57 am

Chunyat: yes it is relative, I am sure that there are some gyms with hotheaded people too, but in minority.

Ok, I have wider martial history. I trained judo for 1 year, then hybrid karate-judo-aikido for 5 years, Hung Ga for 5 years and for last 1.5 year I have experimented with MMA, box, kickbox and yi quan. Meanwhile I have no correct style, I am only interested in martial arts, have a lot of skilled friends, just looking for metods that fits for my notion, so I can feel free and fulfilled. I am too much anarchist for serious training in correct martial art. Thats why, no offence :)
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Postby laukarfei » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:43 pm

do yourself a favor and dont go play paddy cake with your friends, go train in brazilian jiu jitsu, and muy thai and get on a good strength and conditioning routine that works for you.

then go fight. then you will know the differene between hung and what is done in modern day fight training.

im not gonna talk about hung and what it is or isnt like what is being done with a bunch of europeans here who, sorry, have little exposure to mma or grappling.

forget all the talk and empty thoughts and oppinions based on little more then tv, a few events and a few experiences. find the truth for yourself by doing it, or else you will never know
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Postby DimitryK » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:16 am

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Postby Xiaobian » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:31 am

Last edited by Xiaobian on Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
其疾如風,其徐如林,侵略如火,不動如山,難知如陰,動如雷霆
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Postby vaulander » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:43 am

Tournaments, competitions, and entertainment fighting all have two things in common:
They are made to last, so people have a good show.
They are designed to keep contestants fairly safe.

Unfortunately, or fortunately as you may see it, TCMA are designed to finish things quickly. The KGFFK itself has plenty of moves that are not allowed in even the most easy going MMA circuit. Snake/spear hand to the eyes, Tiger claws to rake faces, eyes, and gripping throats, arm breaking techniques, knee stompings/shin burrings, to name a few obvious ones. You can't just grab a pair of gloves and a mouth guard and 'go at it' without some serious life-altering injuries.

There is a massive difference in an doing an armlock to make your opponent tap out, and going in with the intent and will to destroy the arm straight off. Doing a choke to make the opponent tap out or pass out, and slamming, gripping and tearing the throat.
Here's to cheating, stealing, fighting, and drinking.
If you cheat, may you cheat death.
If you steal, may you steal a woman's heart.
If you fight, may you fight for a brother.
And if you drink, may you drink with me.
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Postby Daifong » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:45 am

Hello Dimitri K,

If you are interested in traditional Chinese arts, of such arts, Hung Ga does not idealize gymnastic-type movements, nor have an excessive number of foundational excercises to learn in order to gain a working foundation...

Also, all of the movements are practical...

It sounds like you know exactly what you want from training, so far as sport fighting/ self defense emphasis, and you will know exactly who you're looking for when you meet them...

That being said (as in anything), it's not what you learn, but who you learn it from, right?

Ok Dimitri, good luck with your search then!

:wink:

Best,

Michael
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Postby PM » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:33 pm

Pavel Macek



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Postby DimitryK » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:37 pm

I will grab the opportunity of some spare time as I am having my lunch at work, and jot down some of the things that have gone through my head recently.

So a question that again started this thought process was "How much training is enough for what purpose?"

Now as I started thinking, I came to a conclusion that there are 4 categories of where fighting seems to be required these days:
1) Fighting professionally
2) Fighting as a side effect of your profession (i.e. Bodyguard, bouncer, Special Ops, etc)
3) Fighting for self defense during a street encounter
4) Fighting to keep yourself fit and healthy

Lets give brief definitions to each (sorry, I seem to have been influenced by Spinoza in the way I try to put out my thoughts):

Fighting professionally - This is your job. You get paid for your fights. Fights require you to give maximum physical output that your body is capable of.

Fighting as a side effect of your profession - You are a professional bouncer, security, or a body guard, or for that matter, any professional that has to deal with physical encounters on daily basis as a part of his job. Your goal os to effectively neutralize your target, with a given amount of strength/effectiveness allowed/necessary.

Fighting for self defense during a street encounter - Here I mean a brawl outside a pub/club, street mugging, general un-planned encounters. Requires quick effective method of neutralizing the danger without going overboard with violence.

Fighting to keep yourself fit and healthy - Here I am talking about general practice, similar to one where you go to the gym on a more or less regular basis, keeping yourself healthy and fit. And THAT is your goal, hence increased protective gear, lighter contact, etc etc.

A quick analysis of what I consider a street encounter, or an "All Goes" encounter (valid for both bodyguard/security and street "random" encounter).

In general, an "All Goes" encounter can be a fight outside a pub/club. We are talking about not just biting or groin kicks, or even eye gouging; no, here we are talking about grabbing the thing lying next to you, be it a stool, a beer bottle, a beer glass, whatever. The danger potential here is exponential, considering that you might have also indulged some alcohol/substances. Hence the risks here are very high.

Another possible "All Goes" encounter is a mugging. Now to be very honest, if I am mugged with a knife (have been only once, and got very lucky), I might take a chance at defending myself, with, say having a coat as a protective gear, but the reality of defending yourself against a real knife without getting hurt is a rather optimistic approach. A "REAL" knife fight is brutal, and if you are unarmed, I would seriously consider giving the guy whatever he needs, unless there is a good chance I can see of having a successful advantage i.e. a coat, a beer bottle, whatever that might give me the necessary advantage. Yes, there are many techniques out there, but I had some excellent conversations with special ops guys and police officers who state it plain and simple, if a guy has a knife, unless you realize and accept that your chances of getting hurt/seriously damaged are about 98%, even if you are the most amazing fighter, do not engage the enemy. It often doesn't matter how fast your kick or punch is, the simple reality of the matter is, it is a knife, it will cut you without any strength necessary, and the guy has an advantage.

Last and probably worst case, which I actually had the unfortunate luck of experiencing, is being at a gun-point. Now in this situation, unless I am in a war-zone and this situation can decide many lives besides my own, I might consider engaging. And, well, if the guy is again too close, or has an obvious disadvantage I can exploit. But if the guy is not within your reach, you really have no chance. I mean, really, the movies are great, reality of the matter is, when you see the barrel, it holds that tiny thing that WILL decide your life. Kinda makes you think if you really want to take those chances.

Now I want to analyze what possible necessities each of the categories might have.

Fighting professionally
As I mentioned, this is your job. Hence the better you do here, the more money you have, the more you can train, the mroe you can basically survive. This is your bread and butter. You are here to hurt, be hurt, and try to be on top of your game. Your practicing is most likely daily, with extreme routines trying to get the best you can in the shortest amount of time possible so to maximize your income and chances of winning. Also, you need to pack some either false aggression or be a somewhat half-decent actor. It simply is not as interesting to see a guy who is not making anything about his fight, bigger audiences pay to see the show, and if that IS your bread and butter, you gotta be the big part of the show, and acting is still a part of it.

Fighting as a side effect of your profession
This is somewhat close to being a professional fighter, except no preparation time for your fight, no previous knowledge of your opponent or their abilities. You have to be ready for encounters with weapons, random objects, strong, possibly skillful opponents, drug induced people who might be tolerant to any sort of pain, and might need to actually be disabled effectively, special targets, etc.
Such training will require exceptional conditioning. Your training is daily, it is both psychologically and physically intensive. Evaluation of the target, perfect emotional control, and ability to follow orders are all crucial. Often you are not required to be on the edge of your physical abilities. You have certain necessities. You fights should not be long, you are valued for efficiency and level of protection you can offer, not how many rounds you can stand.

Fighting for self defense during a street encounter
Training for this, in my honest opinion, would be to first learn how to avoid a fight at most possible and available costs. Reason being is that you should only fight if you indeed have nowhere to go, but yes, you have to be able to be very efficient and successful in your encounter.

An "All Goes" encounter depends HEAVILY on the circumstances. So in my opinion, the training here requires a system focused heavily on your state of mind (psychological factors), speed of reflexes, and so on. It should really give you critical level of situation assessment, fast and effective moves to neutralize the opponent, and some serious conditioning on the physical side as to reflexes, explosive attacks, some good conditioning on withstanding a hit (right away I think if Dao Sam Siing :) ). I would also say that training in weapons like knives and batons and the usage of general items i.e. stools/sticks, a coat, etc. is very important as to be able to avoid damage with the highest possible chance.

Fighting to keep yourself fit and healthy
This is a recreational activity. You want to work your muscles/joints, you are interested in getting your body in motion after a long day at work. You want to have a bit of a challenge and cardio workout with a friend of fellow students. You goal is to practice, keep healthy, not get hurt.

Such training is like a morning exercise: you do it regularly, you do not go overboard with your training routines. Your direct goal is to be strong and healthy, have positive effects on your body, mind, etc. It might include lots of physical exercises, weight training, cardio, etc. In the end, the point of the fights you have is to have fun, hit and get hit, but to know that you will not get heavily hurt, and the final goal is the process and health results, not the winning/survival.


So that is about it. This si what went through my head, things I thought of, etc. The interesting part is that I found that Hung Gar, as a system and philosophy, is very prominent to fit the last two categories, and in some cases even the 2nd one as well (I know only of two occurrences of which I am aware that make the usage of Hung Gar for job related fighting to be successful). It does seem that it is not as effective (again, in my opinion) in the rink/octagon due to many things that it lacks to perform well there. Hung Gar poses excellent healthy exercises, it has some very good effective ways of self defense, and as it also includes weapons, it gives some interesting foundation for weapons training. As to the physical exertion, I think it is just right to lead a very well founded healthy life, keeping your body quite strong and keeping your mind focused.

I think there could be interesting improvements to hung gar to include modern weapons, but this is quite funny, considering that Hung Gar is a TRADITIONAL chines martial art :). I would rather say that it might be an interesting idea to have some good "modern" weapons training done sort-of on the side for Hung Gar schools. It would definitely move away from the traditional aspect, so I would imagine that it would be a class included outside of the main system, and would rather be an aspect of the specific school/teacher.

One of the most important things that I personally found to be very interesting to me in Hung Gar and that drove me to continue right now with it is the general feel of people who are practicing it. By "feel" i mean the tendency to act in certain ways, i.e. very respectful of each other, respectful of traditional aspects, teachers, culture. These are specific characteristics that suit specific people, and I happened to feel that they are the closest to my own characteristics. Hence my choice:)

Hope you guys don;t mind me posting so much. I sort of was waiting for an opportunity to start writing more about my thoughts. I have been thinking about many things for many many years, and maybe this might be my first outlet to the public:) Would be great to hear more thoughts, responses,etc!

All the best,

Dimitry
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Postby Asmo » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:45 pm

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Postby laukarfei » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:03 pm

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Postby DimitryK » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:16 pm

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Postby DimitryK » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:28 pm

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Postby laukarfei » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:25 pm

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Postby Asmo » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:27 pm

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Postby crazedjustice888 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:23 am

Martial Arts + Tokusatsu = Godditude
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