Hung Kuen's "seed" techniques

[Chris H]

Since there isn't a consensus as to what constitutes a seed (tool, technique, energy, etc), how bout a list that is mixed?

Here is a list that some might recognize, including both basic tools and methods/techniques-

1. Chut Sing Lin Wan Kuen
2. Sam Sing Ngau Taan Gerk
3. Fu Jow (another list is more specific and has hungry tiger catches lamb, another has black tiger)
4. Hok Joi (cranes beak)
5. Chin Ji Sau
6. Po Pai Sau
7. Moon Shadow Kick
8. Blossom Hides in the Sleeve
9. Wu Dip Jeung

So, in this list, there are two sequences which include several moves, a few basic tools, and 5 methods that have tons of variations.

[Subitai]

It seems obvious that we weren't on the same page.

From that list, you seem to be making a proverbial capsule of what "IS" recognizably Hung Ga. I understand that you throughout a smathering of stuff and it could have been different.

My panties ruffled cause it seemed to me that no matter how much I offered, (and make no mistake I gave away allot to the keen observer, more DETAIL than anyone else) you seemed to poo poo it.

One thing is for sure...if this is your Test list as I suspect it is. I know now why you said it could be different strokes for different folks or knowbody agrees.

But perhaps instead of trying to seperate (tool, technique, energy) why not talk about how each of those pretty much has all three.

#8 for example...Flowers in the sleeves.

It could be evade and hit when elongated. And making your body turn to the side (like in Fu Hok) and sending your energy out to the fist (Longer reach than your opponant) is vital.

Or it can be done up front like when we are saluting with the body more square.
But to do hit like that right under the guys arm, you have to have a good waist (Dan tien) snap because you're hitting from a shorter range.
A key is to hide directly under the his arm if you can...but not always.

This is what we also call a black movement sometimes = come from hidden spot.

"O"

[PM]

Subitai: although i do not understand some of the comments (like the one about Daifong, comparison of me to Curtis Kautzmann etc.), ok, never mind that.

as i wrote before, i thought the thread is about "seed techniques" (kyun jung), not "concepts"/principles" (kyun lei) or "skills" (gungfu). if you ask a boxer, what are the "seed techniques" of his art, he would probably answer something like "jab, cross, hook, uppercut, block, parry, shield, duck, weave, footwork... ". i have tried to answer the same way, leaving the discussion about power generation and concepts to other threads that may follow (and i hope they will, as today's gungfu world is obsessed with stories and techniques, and often neglect the strenghtening and conditioning training, fighting strategy etc.).

ok, let me add: yiu - kiu - ma (waist/body - bridge hands - stances and footwork) are the key to our system (we all know that, or?). in our system, consider anything we practise (warming up exercises, stance/footwork training, drills, sets... ) as tools do develop yiu - kiu - ma. coordinated and smooth cooperation of yiu - kiu - ma = "power" (ging), and that is what is it about.

pardon me, the seed techniques listed above are defininitelly not from so called Lam Saiwing's Training Manual (or more exactly, Leung Daat's book on Tiger Crane System Training Methods), nor from your Sifu's videos - i am really not from a PAL/SECAM lineage like Curtis and dozens of other guys publicly teaching out there. it as a ABC techniques syllabus of tek - da - syut - na, which we train as separated drills, combos, with weights in the hands, on striking pads/kicking shields, on sand bag and wooden poles, in sparring drills, without/with protective gear etc. it covers top, middle, lower and side gates both in attack and defense, it has both long bridges and short bridges, wide stances and narrow stances, fists, palms and fingers, all 4 types of attack (tek - da - syut - na) etc. not a list that i saw in somebody else's book, but the stuff we regularly train and put into test - against WCH guys, boxers, Thai boxers (last gong sau matches were just 2 weeks ago, we had 8 matches, full contact, and we did a very good job).

ok, never mind that, for both Subitai and Chris H: no offence, can we cut out the personal insults and mockering crap and come back to discussion, back to the topic? please. such an interesting topic.

[Chris H]

So, maybe it is an issue of us describing two sides of the same coin? (Ok, it seems like Mok deleted his post, so this might not make sense)

Like Pavel mentioned, and how I mentioned earlier, the seeds are exactly like the basic tools you'd hear if you asked a boxer about their repertoire (jab, cross, hook, etc) and stuff like that.

Of course energy is going to be an issue, because body mechanics are a huge component of what makes a style a style. The engine won't run without the fuel, but you still need an engine first.

So, with that being said, everything O has mentioned is basic (and IMO compulsory) from a "gung fu" POV, but, the seeds are at an even more basic level (kuen jung). IMO, seeds are style specific to a certain degree, mainly from the angle of what the art chooses to particularly focus on. The two combined will give you a stylistic expression.

However, if you take a seed, lets say something like yat ji choi, and you shoot it through the five elements, you can have several different variations, all manifesting different types of ging and energy. So, there needs to be differentiation between body mechanics that are foundational, and body mechanics that come from more advanced usage and methods of play.

Ping choi can have similar issues as well, oscillating between fire-based gings, wood-based gings, and other variations based on qualities of penetration (chyun, dim, etc). But the basic ping must come first.

You can take gold splitting fist and emphasize different energies with it. You can emphasize more jong ging (colliding) or you can emphasize lok (dropping or falling), or rolling. If you get caught out, you might have to switch to wood to emphasize squeezing and bik. However these plays are all meaningless if you do not understand the basic seed of gwa choi.

Take a boxer for instance. If they learn how to jab, do they learn to jab first, with a decent amount of body mechanics (which would be analogous to the training we have with our stance, structure, etc) and then go from there? Or do they learn all the various energies involved and types of jabs? From my experience, they start out with a basic jab that has body mechanics and as their game develops, they pick up other variations that suit different strategies and situational factors.

Peace

[TenTigers]

hey guys, lighten up, this isn't KFO, y'know!
Chris said in the beginnning that he was researching for a book he wanted to publish, so it is , or should be an exploration into the seed techniques, not a "I know more than you" argument.
Another thing, invoking the daifong spirit,and others,who will go unmentioned. We are here to SHARE and EXCHANGE knowledge. If you guys throw something out there, and then go back to your,'I know but I won't tell you" crap, then you deserve the abuse that will surely follow.
What exactly do you have to lose by sharing? "Oh, that is inner door, family, forbidden,secret bullshit, etc" then why post at all? STFU yeah, like someone is now going to show up at your door and say,"Ah-HA, I know your secret Hung-Ga ten shaped eighteen points blah-blah technique. I will now defeat you!" Bullshit.
either share or go to KFO and hang out with Ross.

[Subitai]

I like what your saying but I gotta go there again. That is, CMA in general is a Footwork Dependant Skillset.

The reason I picked on the mechanics and energy of the horse strance to bow transition is because it preceeds everything.

There is no five elements of different power or energy for the stances.

Good and proper footwork is all that you need.

So when you talk about 5 elements having different energy for the punches...You are alluding that something must COME before that.

The fundamentals of the stance work is approximately the same for all the elements. If you had to worry about TOO>>>TOO MANY things, then the kung fu would not be natural and therefore unuseable.

I don't believe the originators of our style were so concerned with theory as most modern people are...wouldn't you agree? I'd hope so.


All of it comes from the basic knowledge of how to do good footwork. True, if i'm throw waves I might rise and crash.
or if i'm throwing wood I will squeeze my arms a certain way
or if i'm shooting out like a cannon, it just goes directly out like a bullet
yada yada

..but you don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill. All of these just need good footwork based on what I said about the "MAH" in first place. Then you learn to adjust.

You mentioned Sun Fist or Vertical fist aka Yat Gee Choi...Before you can put it through the elements you 1st need to understand the basic of making a tight enough fist so that you don't hurt yourself. All the theory in the world is not good with out it. If you say Sun Fist is a seed...then again say it's the energy of how to form it that preceeds everything.

Boxing has no place in this...YOU SAID SEEDS OF HUNG GA....not a western discipline. We don't model how we teach HG after Boxing do we? Neither do they model after us.

"O"

[Asmo]

Where do series like the "9 special techniques" of the Frank Yee lineage and the "Sup Dok Sau" (ten poison hands) form as practiced in the Chiu Wai lineage fit in all this?

As they consist of several techniques after another they seem to fit very well in with Subitai's comments about energy creation.

[Subitai]

Man I slept on it and then came back this morning.

If wanna say that Sun Fist is a seed, then by all means. I don't wanna buck the system for ya anymore.

Myself, I preffer to worry about the energy of squeezing the fist tight (which is, to use your word... more primordial), everything else comes second.

IMO, the shapes in HG are not as important as the concepts and methods we use to "GET TO" our opponants. For all intensive purposes...it doesn't matter what kind of strike you use after you've set him up. So long as your power(energy) gets to the end of your strike.

In my school, learning proper structure and energy comes early, then you can be smart enough to learn any shape or posture more quickly.

There is a reason why LTW, talked about the importance of getting the power out to the finger tips. He's talking about structure and energy.

When someone says Buttefly palms to you, what comes to your mind?

-- Holding the shape of the hands?
-- The a possible application?
-- Or mabe the REASON why the hands are the way the are, structure wise
-- Or mabe the Reason why the body english inherent in this move IS the way it is.

ease on,
"O"

[Chris H]

[Asmo]

[Chris H]

[mok]

Ok - here's something slightly related about moving energy, from a boxing/MMA perspective.

This is a fight science episode where Rampage Jackson talks about generating power:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYMX_3K_xE[/youtube]


We all agree Boxing footwork is different than Hung Ga, but on some levels it's the same.

In fact even in Hung Ga, there's more than one way to move from horse to bow (although they are same). O - you once mentionned "front wheel drive" - do you agree, depending the circumstance, even horse to bow
+ ping choy can be "front-wheel" drive, "rear-wheel" drive, or both?

But yeah either way it's the same skill (the ma) - there's really no difference - you just adjust to circumstance.

[Tom Bayley]

If you are thinking of seeds as tools then. I would suggest the principle tools are the stances and striking hands. Each stance and striking hand has its own dynamic and energy.

When I think of stances I think of being grounded, of staying mobile, of keeping my hips loose to generate power. Of opening and closing my back to generate power.
All of this arises from the basic stances, cat, tiger, hoarse, and crane.

When I think of striking hands I think of the tension in my hands, forearms, elbows and shoulders. Each hand has its own dynamic which lends itself to particular application. Snake for narrow straight line deflections, for picking up a soft contact, for rolling and controlling joints and muscles, and straight line attacks. Crane for wider circular deflections, for closing down and protecting in close, for hooking and pulling, for short circular whipping attacks at close range and big expansive strikes at long range.

Someone made a good point about the difficulty that beginners have with sensing energy, tension and dynamics. But you don’t have to be aware of what you are learning to learn it. When a students foot is at the wrong angle I don’t say your energy is wrong move that foot. I say adjust the foot like so – now can you feel a difference, in your balance or in the power of a technique. (hopefully they say yes).

When I fight I try to think of stances, hands, movement and energy and for the actual techniques I go with the flow.

I would ague that as everything arises out of the combination of stances and hands it is they that constitute the seeds of the art.

[Daifong]

[Daifong]

In common with a certain Tibetan system (with whom CLF seems to have been rather chummy for some generations), CLF 10 Seed training is primarily a method for developing Longhand combinations, and integrating them with CLF's Shorthand base (of which Chuen La/"Drill-Seizing" might be the most obvious example)...

For HG guys, it's already in your FHSYK (Find the "Eighth Star" and you've got it, more or less)...

For the "bread-and-butter" guys (you know who you are ), along similar lines you could look at it as "Western Boxing 5 Seeds: Jab, Cross, Hook, Uppercut, Clinch"...



Best,

Daifong