Hungry Tiger Catches Goat section in Fu Hok

[Fu-Pau]

[Asmo]

[Chris H]

Well, a lot of the name variations are lineage specific, so the associated meanings can change. These are usually not taught until the practitioner is senior level, possibly intermediate level.

However, on a physical level, most of the time, they are taught to the student before the form is learned. That way the core concept and variations are well ingrained, and then once the form comes up, the postures are just mnemonics for what you've already learned.

The methodology usually comes later, that way the student has sufficient experience playing around with the core concept and variations.

The posture name variations are usually kept in-house, mainly because the books were so prolific, however, the books only helped if you knew the system. The books were written with the practitioner in mind, and not the general public. Be that as it may, there was a lot of stuff not included, so if you want to go back and try to find primary source material, you won't find it in written form. Our elders were always mindful of transmission.

Peace

[Bamboo]

[TenTigers]

this is the way we interpet the techniques, other schools/teachers may interpet differently:
Although the postures seem similar, in some cases identical, the name implies a different application and theory.
1)Hungry Tiger Catches the Lamb/goat,etc-this is an attack on an opponent who has his guard up, but has not initiated his attack on yuo. You initiate the attack-hense the symbology of the lamb-docile and passive.
2) Tiger Overpowers the Wolf-The wolf implies another fierce predator-he is attacking you-you attack the attack, intercepting his intent, and go through him.
3) Fierce Tiger Descends the Mountain-this implies a lower level attack. We use this as a takedown, with the lower arm barring across the upper thigh/lower hips, or higher at the waist, and the lead leg behind the opponent's lead leg, taking him down.
4.Black Tiger's Claws-this is for us, a position with many variations of application. It serves as an on guard stance, offering sheilding or coverage of the upper and middle gates. It can be used as a jam, as a trap, as a deflection as well. The Black Tiger techniques also suggest a certain level of cruelty in both application and intent.

[Asmo]

[abiraghi]

Chris, I enjoyed reading your comment, it shows a deep study and knowledge of the art.
I can add that the late master Chan was really picky on rear hand's position when doing the tiger, but he slightly canged it over the last years of his life. As you can see in he pushes the rear hand quite forward, passing the front hand's elbow, let's say at 45 degrees with the center line. I have been taught this when I went to Hong Kong for the first time in 1977. Then he slightly changed the movement, sharpening the angle of the rear hand's elbow, so to have the rear hand on the side of the front hand's elbow. This way, the rear hand's forearm is presented to the opponent at a 90 degrees angle.
Another difference is the palm of the rear hand. Before it pointed at the opponent, then it pointed at the front hand's elbow.
We disscussed - well, it wasn't easy without a common language but we managed to understand each other after many years of knoledge - this change with Cheung Yee Keung and we decided that master Chan just wanted to define a basic double fu chow, moving it from a double strike and push to a single strike and block. We never understood why. Maybe to go back to his master's roots (in his youth master Chan was an ambitious man and once became a sifu, he changed various parts of the art to suit his ideas and structure).
But it must be clear that this is just the basic, the form to be passed by and to be taught to the new students. The senior student must be aware that he needs to practice the form in all it's different variations of meanings. And that we did. Mi si-hing Kong Pui Wai always practiced the forms at least three times, first in the basic way, then in the "combat" variations. Seeing him training was always a great show!

[markt]

Hi Abiraghi,

Are you speaking about the movements at around 0:23 in the video ?
If so - I would say that the way I learned this movement is more similar to your second description. My sifu learned from Chan sigung through the 50s and 60s in HK, and continued visiting him through the 70s until the early 80s to continue learning.

The way that I learned this movement is emphasizing locking more than striking, which is why the hands are turned slightly - different from most of the other tiger movements.

Are you sure that Chan sigung changed it, or could he have just taught both ways to students at different times ?
The reason I ask is because my sifu would have learned fu hok back in the late 50s and his way of performing this movement fits the movement you were taught later.
My sifu has told me though in various parts of the forms that there are other ways of doing certain movements -- I would think that Chan sigung most likely showed him both ways in these situations, as he did not study Hung Kuen from any other lineage.

[abiraghi]

Hi think he just changed the basic way of teaching the form. Maybe in the late '70s he was more into strikling, I don't know, but for sure my first tiger's rear hands were more a push-strike than a block. Then I learned the more block way and noticed that this way was taught to new student's. I canno't say what master Chan taught before 1977, since I wasn't there

[PM]

hello Alberto, thank for your input, interesting! can you please describe more in detail the usage of the "double tiger claws", as practiced in Grandmaster Chan's school? thank you!

[abiraghi]

Ah... My poor English. What about if I take a video in the next days and try to show what I mean?

[markt]

Thanks Abiraghi - it is always interesting to hear your perspective.

As Cheung Yee Keung studied with Chan sigung for a long time - perhaps he also knew some of the older students ? Maybe not possible, but it would be very interesting to learn about some of the differences in the way he taught and also his knowledge and skill progressed during his lifetime..
My sifu was close to a small group that learned during the same time as him - I believe Kong Pui Wai was older, and although they met, they were part of a different "group" of students.
Also, Cheung Yee Keung was younger than my sifu - he recalled meeting him when going back to HK - at that time, Cheung Yee Keung was living in the building.. but they did not spend much time together as my sifu spent all the time training directly with Chan sigung and visiting his old friends.

[PM]

[abiraghi]

[markt]