Rik's Rant

[TenTigers]

I love these guys who put down contemporary wu-shu, saying that it's not Traditional Kung-Fu, as all the combative techniques have been removed and it's all for the sake of performance,*
and teach their students kickboxing. You can call it san-shou, sanda, whatever. You can justify it by saying jab, cross, uppercut and hook, are jik, ping,pow, and sow.** But, if that is all you are doing, and not teaching them to use the theories, structures, and techniques of your art, then here's a newsflash: You ARE doing "wu-shu." Your forms have absolutely no relevance to what you are teaching, and believe it or not, your students would be better off learning the contemporary wu-shu forms. At least that way, they would be getting the coordination, flexibility, and physical perfection to assist in their overall development.

*this is a truth
** I'm not saying that these techniques don't exist in our styles. They do. But people use this as their cop-out to justify teaching kickboxing and throwing out their Gung-Fu.

-also, I am in no way saying that these fighters aren't excellent, and that the techniques of san-shou and sanda aren't viable.Drilling those techniques, as well as throwing and grappling are tools in our arsenal-I get that. Just don't try to convince yourselves and others that you are doing something you are not.(this is not aimed at anyone here on this forum, just my rant in general)
Feel free to agree or dissagree.

[Asmo]

I agree, hehe. But what you also said is also important, its not that you cant learn to fight that way. You might in fact beocme quite a (world-) champion. But I do believe that (in my truth) you would have been a better figheter if you also have the proper technique and skillset if taught the full hung kuen way.

But as said, you could still do quite well without it, or any other way (streetfighting), it doesnt matter, it just shows you are a great fighter. But with the proper training you could be generating more power, use less energy to do your thing, make better use of your opponent, etc.

[PM]

hi, TT, i generally agree, here are couple of my thoughts:

nothing wrong with ping cheui, jin cheui, ngau gok cheui, tung tin cheui (jab, cross, hook, uppercut), but!: Hung Kyun stances and footwork are different, Hung Kyun defense is different, Hung Kyun kicks are different (no high kicks to the head i suppose), plus we have plenty of other stuff that we incorporate (grabs, palm strikes, elbow strikes, knees, headbutts, sweeps, trips... ), various levels and modes of sparring/free fithing etc. all way different from standard kickboxing jumping around.

i personaly think that modern taolu competions (especially after the introduction of "difficulties", nandu) and sanda/sanshou fighting are 2 completely different disciplines; it does not help a sanda fighter to train taolu at all - if he spends the time running, skipping the rope, punching mitts and heavy bag, much better for him. how many guys compete in both disciplines? the situation is worse than kata vs. kumite in karate. in Hung Kyun, everything is part of one system - basics, drills, application drills, sets, sparring sets, sparring drills, free fighting, weapons etc.

that is the reason of efforts like this

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=955

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=131

however, how many people took part in the discussion? not many. how many people took part in the discussion only? most of the guys who took part.

i mean, guys, is it that difficult to grab a phone or camera, make a short video of your guys fighting the Hung Kyun way and post it on YouTube so people can see the difference? promote Hung Kyun positively (ie. show how we do it!), instead of criticising and just talking? i vote for positive promotion (doing!), not negative expressing of complaints (writting, talking)

[Asmo]

Yo, I'd LOVE to up a vid. But maybe its OK if we wait till I can actually upload a clip that is worthwhile?

I'm working with a small group now, which are all absolute beginners. No, I won't upload a clip. For me personally I wouldn't care, you all know I don't mind much to show my ignorance also, but I do want to protect my friends I study with.

I fully support your views on sparring, and work on pads and heavy bag. But it's not like that means I also have the people to show it on a forum like this, some things take a bit of time.

Does that mean I should stop discussing it also? Sure there are people who talk but will never do, by decision, but believe me, if I could I would right away Pavel... I love some contact.

[PM]

Asmo, as for you, take your time, train hard as i know you do, and i am sure hat in a year, two or three the clips you will upload will rock, no doubts about that! i was referring to the more experienced Hung Kyun/gungfu guys and/or teachers here on the forum or other forums.

one for thing: also i have respect for modern sanda/sanshou, it has not much have to do with Chinese martial arts

[Asmo]

The same might be true for other schools though. You're lucky in the way you found a group of people who are willing to work hard Pavel. So far all the schools I had close contact with its the same thing, students come and go, not many reach a considerable level. And even then, not many/all want to spar. I'm sure to at least some extend this is true for many school. Also, and I think we talked about this when was at your place, the situation in your country and here in countries where we had peace for a long time is very different. People do martial arts to get fit, not necessarily for fighting.

That said, I do have 2 guys who defenitally want to spar, and some potentially, so I have high hopes, for me personally also, hihi.

This all made me think, what do you do when students dont want to spar? You guide them to try? Or you accept that and teach them drills on pads etc anyway so you at least keep them as students?
Hmm, this is not really on topic, or is it?

[TenTigers]

ASMO, in answer to your question, you make it part of the training, and you develop a method of teaching them that brings them along gradually from point A to point B in a non-threatening manner, ensuring a win-win situation. Let them decide their level of contact. Not everyone wants to bang hard.
But-no matter what anyone tells you, everyone signs up for Martial Arts because they are scared and want to conquer their fears. They all want self-defense. If they truly wanted to get in shape, they would've joined a gym. They may say they joined for various reasons, but deep down inside, we all have fear, we all want to feel safe and confident.
So, give them what they want, but guage it for each student.
Remember, Gung-Fu (all Martial Arts in fact) was never meant to be taught to the masses, but one on one direct transmission. Maintain your personal approach to teaching individuals, (even in a group class, give individual attention)and you will achieve this.

PM-I don't have any clips as of yet, although there are a few out there of my guys fighting-but they are beginners. I will get some out there soon.
However, let's save that for the other topic.
I don't want the Bullshido mentality of, "If it isn't on youtube or you can't show a video, then it doesn't exist/count?stfu/etc."creeping in to this forum, as it has on other groups. That is why we all come here.

[PM]

Asmo, generally you are right, i do not agree with couple of things:

- might be true for other individuals, but should not be like this in case of any Chinese martial arts school.

- students are coming to learn self-defense and fighting, but teachers do not teach it (because they simply do not know, and do not have the methodology). students are leaving because the lack of realistic training. case of most of the TCMA schools out there, in our country or anywhere else

as for my school, we have a very detailed methodology of preparing the students for the free fighting - application drills, sparring sets, sparring drills. students get into a basic level of sparring within first 3-6 months.

[PM]

TT: agreed! i looking forward to see your fighters, as i know that you train and teach hard the right way!

[Asmo]

Ok, great thanks guys

PM, I fully agree, in a martial arts school you should learn to fight!

[markt]

[Itinerant_Phenomenologist]

[Xiaobian]

[vaulander]

[PM]