Philosophical Aspects

[Mig]

Hung Ka bros,

Reading at some literature in Chinese Boxing history and others I find that Buddhism influence is greater in some styles than others, i.e., Chan or Zen. In HungKa it seems that there is influence from all over. A little of Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism or the common folklore of the time either in Guang zhou (Canton) or in Xiang gan (Hong Kong). I am wondering how much do you know or how important do you think is to learn about some philosophical aspects as one of the pillars of this system. Then some of the popular beliefs that may have influenced the style that have become a myth since the times of Hung Heigung.
Any ideas?

Thanks,

Mig

[TBag]

Interesting question, Mig, and one I've pondered on as well. While the Hung Kyun is certainly derived from Chan Buddhist origins, many of the Hung practitioners I've met out there have minimal familiarity with the spiritual background of this art.

One is always faced with the question of "Why practice?" Good martial arts tend to be geared toward generating not only martial ability, but also robust physical health, clarity and peace of mind, and the cultivation of spirit. Yet, I know many people who put in a lot of time and energy wanting to be badass fighters, better than everyone else, or otherwise egotistically stoked. Not only are these motivations problematic in the long run, they tend to go against traditional Buddhist principles like working for liberation from the cycle of suffering, attaining the clear mind of no mind, or developing happiness, love, and compassion for all beings.

Like you say, the diversity of Chinese cultural history is also woven into the fabric of the fist sets. While a movement may appear externally simple, there are usually deeper meanings. It is noteworthy that the Hung Ga of today, containing techniques that were once akin to closely guarded military secrets, has been flavored by a counterrevolutionary history of sadness and vengeance in its 10 generations or so outside of the temple.

I feel that it is very important for practitioners to consider not only the cultural and philosophical history of their art, but also the reality of what it is they are developing from its practice. Like a good friend says: "You are what you think about all day long".

Tim

[PM]

hello, interesting topic, couple of thoughts:

i personally believet that the origin and development of today's Hung Kyun was deeply involved by

- sim buddhism - (legendary?) Southern Siulam monastery (venerable Jisin Simsi, lay disciples as Hung Heigun and possibly Luk Achoi) and later other monasteries where martial arts were practiced like Saisim Ji, Gwonghau Ji, Hoitung Ji (Luk Achoi and especially Tit Kiu Saam, who was devoted lay follower of "three treasures"). well, it was very popular in the South. we should not forget that 6th patriarch Huineng was form South, hes established so called Southern branch of Chan buddhsim, and was preaching in Canton.

- gongwu 江湖 (Mnd. jianghu) circles - Red boats of Chinese opera (Jisin simsi, Hung Heigun... ), street performers (Wong Keying, Wong Feihung, Tit Kiu Saam, Lam Fuksing... ), Chinese secret societies (Hung mun) and people who joined army (Wong Keying, Wong Feihung and Lam Saiwing all have taught in the army and their art was certainly involved by many masters and practitioners they met there)

Hung Kyun terminology (and not only HK, same in case of Wingcheun) is full of buddhist terms, such as gamgong, lohon, Buddha etc. might be a forgery of later generations, to establish a connection to the (legendary?) Southern Siulam, or might be a true heritage of the buddhist monastery roots. laso, Hung Kuyn has very "water like" terminology, which i believe suggests connection to Red Junks, which play crucial role in the early stages of development of our art.

my conclusion: not much from taoism and confucianism, except the common all Chinese heritage, but plenty of sim (Mnd. Chan, Jp. Zen) buddhism in the history of our art. i emphasise history, as today Hung Kyun is practiced by many practitioners of different beliefs or agnostics/atheists.

i am personally very interested in the heritage of the Sim buddhism and taoism, but that is me. although i found it VERY inspiring and enriching to my personal life, i do not feel it is crucial. most of the ethical and philosophical values are universal to humankind.

last thought. if you see the Way of the Warrior documentary, master Chan Honjung is complaining about the loss of what we can call "confucians values". no more master- disciple relationship, no sifus but coaches. I would add: too many students learning from DVDs, internet, or picking a bit here or a bit there. peoeple who want to grow without bowing their head first. in my eyes, there is something lost, the art is not complete.

[crazedjustice888]

That is the exact reason I am taking intro to Buddhism class. I want to learn about the monks that created the system and learn their philosophies. I am a very devout christian myself, but a lot of the Yee family sifus I have met are christian but have buddhist outlooks...if that makes sense. So yeah, one needs some form of spiritual development to get the WHOLE of the system because it helps better oneself.

[TenTigers]

it is small wonder that Christians can see value in Buddhist thought. For the most part, they said the same things. The story of the life of Buddha, which predates Christ by thousands of years, was very similar in so many ways, it leads one to believe that the first influenced the latter. Do a search for similarities between Jesus and the Buddha. A real eye-opener.

[crazedjustice888]

Yeah, I did a report on it...LOL!!! What can they say? Both lead moral and ethical lives.

[vaulander]

[lolletto74]