Self learning
by PM » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:52 am
well... how much did you pay for all these DVDs? how much do you think an intensive training (week or two) under a good sifu would cost? why did you not go to Sunnyvale to train in Lam Gwun (or anywhere else) instead wasting the money on collecting stuff, sets, and developing bad habits? "perfect practice makes perfect, practice makes permanent". anyway, i already gave you my 2 cents, you know what i think. all the best!
Pavel Macek
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by Asmo » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:56 pm
How about this suggestion: pick 3 combinations of techniques. Like the kiu sao in horse and ping choi. Pick another two, don't fantasize them yourselves, pick them from gung gee fook fu kuen.
Every session start with warming up then lin gung, so pushups, stance training, saam sing, etc. Try and evenly spread them over your weekly schedule (not do pushups each day for example, you need to recover to gain from your training). Lin gung is most important in your hung kuen training so it is never skipped.
Next do your techniques picked above. First 10x slow (SLOW, not fast with long pauses, but each movement slow), try and really be picky and feel how the technique works and what must be done better. Try to get it right. Next do the techniques 10x at moderate speed (not fast, do that in a year or so) and get whatever you just found out at slow speed into the move.
Keep doing this set of techniques each session for at least 1 month. You'll be amazed at what progress you got by focusing on just a few techniques. That knowledge and understanding will seep through all your other techniques. It is impossible to achieve when doing forms, you're too much focused on the sequence of moves then and you're not able to correct yourself like if you do the same movement 9 more times (trust me, next time you do the form you'll make the exact same mistake). After a month decide if you keep these 3 techniques, change some to others, etc.
If you think this is boring, I sincerely believe hung kuen training is not for you
Personally I find training like this is immensely satisfying and it made a huge improvement on my art. It's only boring if you don't look into the depth.
BTW, if you would keep it to just a few techniques and keep at those for a prolonged period of time I'm pretty sure you would get far more response from the forum as well.
Then finally, in the last section of your workout do whatever form you want to do (although I strongly suggest to just keep it at one or two even if you want to do forms at all).
Every session start with warming up then lin gung, so pushups, stance training, saam sing, etc. Try and evenly spread them over your weekly schedule (not do pushups each day for example, you need to recover to gain from your training). Lin gung is most important in your hung kuen training so it is never skipped.
Next do your techniques picked above. First 10x slow (SLOW, not fast with long pauses, but each movement slow), try and really be picky and feel how the technique works and what must be done better. Try to get it right. Next do the techniques 10x at moderate speed (not fast, do that in a year or so) and get whatever you just found out at slow speed into the move.
Keep doing this set of techniques each session for at least 1 month. You'll be amazed at what progress you got by focusing on just a few techniques. That knowledge and understanding will seep through all your other techniques. It is impossible to achieve when doing forms, you're too much focused on the sequence of moves then and you're not able to correct yourself like if you do the same movement 9 more times (trust me, next time you do the form you'll make the exact same mistake). After a month decide if you keep these 3 techniques, change some to others, etc.
If you think this is boring, I sincerely believe hung kuen training is not for you
Personally I find training like this is immensely satisfying and it made a huge improvement on my art. It's only boring if you don't look into the depth.
BTW, if you would keep it to just a few techniques and keep at those for a prolonged period of time I'm pretty sure you would get far more response from the forum as well.
Then finally, in the last section of your workout do whatever form you want to do (although I strongly suggest to just keep it at one or two even if you want to do forms at all).
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by TenTigers » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:36 pm
I agree with Asmo and PM here.
There is a point where it becomes "forms collecting."
I'm sure many of us went through it as well.
I once wrote down all the forms I had learned over the years, between the various Martial Arts systems I had trained in and dabbled in, and it was over a hundred! (then again, is tan-tuie one set or ten?:-)
The syllabus I was teaching had too many sets as well, so I started stripping away everything but the essentials.
There are some sets that I like, but don't know what to do with, so they remain on the back burner for now. (Siu Ng ying Kuen, Lau Ga Kuen, etc)
When I was under one Sifu, his curriculum had all four pillar sets, dahn-dao,eight diagram staff, butterfly knives,all taught before Black Sash-about 4-5 years. Now, after seeing and speaking with other Sifus, I realize that certain sets like eight diagram staff, ng ying kuen, and tiet sin kuen are better saved a bit more until the student has developed a proper foundation.
Not to be confused with dangling a carrott, mind you. It simply becomes overload, and the student suffers in the long run by not actually developing a strong foundation, or understanding of the fundamentals. They also develop the, "I know it" attitude.
The method lien gung, and taking a few choice moves and focusing on them is the same reason why Karate schools have line drills. Wu-Shu schools also have line drills, and Northern schools teach Tan Tuie. Ying Yee Kuen (XingYi Chuan) teaches the five element fist in line drills as well. And look at what these basics drilling creates in a student.
(and so begins my next thread....)
There is a point where it becomes "forms collecting."
I'm sure many of us went through it as well.
I once wrote down all the forms I had learned over the years, between the various Martial Arts systems I had trained in and dabbled in, and it was over a hundred! (then again, is tan-tuie one set or ten?:-)
The syllabus I was teaching had too many sets as well, so I started stripping away everything but the essentials.
There are some sets that I like, but don't know what to do with, so they remain on the back burner for now. (Siu Ng ying Kuen, Lau Ga Kuen, etc)
When I was under one Sifu, his curriculum had all four pillar sets, dahn-dao,eight diagram staff, butterfly knives,all taught before Black Sash-about 4-5 years. Now, after seeing and speaking with other Sifus, I realize that certain sets like eight diagram staff, ng ying kuen, and tiet sin kuen are better saved a bit more until the student has developed a proper foundation.
Not to be confused with dangling a carrott, mind you. It simply becomes overload, and the student suffers in the long run by not actually developing a strong foundation, or understanding of the fundamentals. They also develop the, "I know it" attitude.
The method lien gung, and taking a few choice moves and focusing on them is the same reason why Karate schools have line drills. Wu-Shu schools also have line drills, and Northern schools teach Tan Tuie. Ying Yee Kuen (XingYi Chuan) teaches the five element fist in line drills as well. And look at what these basics drilling creates in a student.
(and so begins my next thread....)
'My Gung-Fu is MY Gung-Fu. It may not be YOUR Gung-Fu"
Gwok Si, Gwok Faht
Gwok Si, Gwok Faht
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by vaulander » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:14 pm
PM: DVD's, weapons, uniforms, and misc from Wing Lam amounts to $1875.00
Armor, weapons, uniforms and junk DVD's from Martialartsmart.com amounts to $1743.00
Just checked my Microsoft Money program. Those numbers are just insane. Doesn't look like much when you buy a DVD here, a set of Sai there. You know, when you got a bit of money over from bills and living expenses. I could probably have gone to Sunnyvale a couple of times for that money, if it wasn't for the school closing down and sifu Kwong Wing Lam going into semi-retirement. Did I mention I bought some DVD's in a hurry thinking the store might close as well?
Anyway, in my foolishness and naivety I had this plan to learn a lot, then go to an established school to get corrections. Couple that with my vacations usually saved up for family either coming here, or me going to see them, and the 'find a teacher' thing sort of went on the backburner. In fact, I was going to visit two schools in Sweden this summer, but there was an issue with my passport. So I've spent the last three weeks doing housework, reading and practicing, as I had the vacation planned before I realized the passport problem.
Asmo: I have no problem with drilling two three moves repeatedly. I let the bag taste my Gui Da Chui repeatedly every training. Kiu Sau in horse stance is a staple, and have seriously carved my forearms. Like I said, I have picked apart the Kung Gee and worked every move back and forth across the parkinglot. I am doing the Yat Gee Chui and Ping Chui every day on both sides, both freehand to get the right movement down, then stress testing on the bag to make sure my structure is correct and don't collapse. Obviously with all this wasted vacation I have plenty of free training time, so I am filling it to the brim.
Question: What does Saam Sing mean? I think Lin Gung is physical excercise.
I've also picked up a copy of Marc Macyoung's " 'Secrets' of effective Offense" where he goes into fundamentals with plenty of drills, and if you guys didn't get my eyes open, this book did. Sort of a 'nuts and bolts' explanation to lots of things I thought I knew, or learned way back and forgot.
As for the 'boring' aspects, I might not have expressed myself very clearly. I do everything I can think of, but pushups by themselves is just a matter of 'as many as possible, plus one' and that's it until you recover. It's a way to a goal. It's a price to pay for efficiency. "Yehaw, I gots tomorrow off, I'm gonna drill the Yat Gee Choi/Ping Choi on the bag until it screams! But first... I need to do my pushups..."
Yes yes, whine whine, bitch bitch, I know. My body hurts. Too many years of hard work, too many accidents, including two traffic collisions, one car to bike, another car to car. But that doesn't matter. If I can just grit my teeth and swallow the pain long enough to do the 'grunt' work properly I can do the fun stuff, like practicing the forms and applications. Working with partners who are half my age, unhurt and full of energy is a great motivation. They might be able to do pushups until the cows come home, but I can hold the Horse until the cows go back out again. (Bicycling for a number of years helps.)
Thank you all again, your advice and tips are invaluable to me. I hope I don't disappoint you too much.
V.
Armor, weapons, uniforms and junk DVD's from Martialartsmart.com amounts to $1743.00
Just checked my Microsoft Money program. Those numbers are just insane. Doesn't look like much when you buy a DVD here, a set of Sai there. You know, when you got a bit of money over from bills and living expenses. I could probably have gone to Sunnyvale a couple of times for that money, if it wasn't for the school closing down and sifu Kwong Wing Lam going into semi-retirement. Did I mention I bought some DVD's in a hurry thinking the store might close as well?
Anyway, in my foolishness and naivety I had this plan to learn a lot, then go to an established school to get corrections. Couple that with my vacations usually saved up for family either coming here, or me going to see them, and the 'find a teacher' thing sort of went on the backburner. In fact, I was going to visit two schools in Sweden this summer, but there was an issue with my passport. So I've spent the last three weeks doing housework, reading and practicing, as I had the vacation planned before I realized the passport problem.
Asmo: I have no problem with drilling two three moves repeatedly. I let the bag taste my Gui Da Chui repeatedly every training. Kiu Sau in horse stance is a staple, and have seriously carved my forearms. Like I said, I have picked apart the Kung Gee and worked every move back and forth across the parkinglot. I am doing the Yat Gee Chui and Ping Chui every day on both sides, both freehand to get the right movement down, then stress testing on the bag to make sure my structure is correct and don't collapse. Obviously with all this wasted vacation I have plenty of free training time, so I am filling it to the brim.
Question: What does Saam Sing mean? I think Lin Gung is physical excercise.
I've also picked up a copy of Marc Macyoung's " 'Secrets' of effective Offense" where he goes into fundamentals with plenty of drills, and if you guys didn't get my eyes open, this book did. Sort of a 'nuts and bolts' explanation to lots of things I thought I knew, or learned way back and forgot.
As for the 'boring' aspects, I might not have expressed myself very clearly. I do everything I can think of, but pushups by themselves is just a matter of 'as many as possible, plus one' and that's it until you recover. It's a way to a goal. It's a price to pay for efficiency. "Yehaw, I gots tomorrow off, I'm gonna drill the Yat Gee Choi/Ping Choi on the bag until it screams! But first... I need to do my pushups..."
Yes yes, whine whine, bitch bitch, I know. My body hurts. Too many years of hard work, too many accidents, including two traffic collisions, one car to bike, another car to car. But that doesn't matter. If I can just grit my teeth and swallow the pain long enough to do the 'grunt' work properly I can do the fun stuff, like practicing the forms and applications. Working with partners who are half my age, unhurt and full of energy is a great motivation. They might be able to do pushups until the cows come home, but I can hold the Horse until the cows go back out again. (Bicycling for a number of years helps.)
Thank you all again, your advice and tips are invaluable to me. I hope I don't disappoint you too much.
V.
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by ironpalm » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:16 pm
I think PM, Asmo, and TT are right on, but this has been said many times here. I guess it can never be overstated. I have told many students that the drills are the most important. It is real Hung Gar, the foundation. What is the most important part of the house? The foundation!
The drills under a good teacher, will enable a student to get into a stance (correctly), move in a stance, transition through stances, then move/manipulate energy from those stances (striking, kicking, etc). It is not normally explained in that manner to beginners, but that is what a beginner should try to achieve. A good drill focuses the technique (balance, breath, leverage, centering, etc). A form takes the individual techniques and links them together in a series of moves, each based upon the previous technique (mostly), hence transitions from one technique to another is very important, but you cannot do that unless you've learned the foundation.
The drills under a good teacher, will enable a student to get into a stance (correctly), move in a stance, transition through stances, then move/manipulate energy from those stances (striking, kicking, etc). It is not normally explained in that manner to beginners, but that is what a beginner should try to achieve. A good drill focuses the technique (balance, breath, leverage, centering, etc). A form takes the individual techniques and links them together in a series of moves, each based upon the previous technique (mostly), hence transitions from one technique to another is very important, but you cannot do that unless you've learned the foundation.
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by vaulander » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:14 am
So I have noticed, Asmo. Either my body have become stronger and/or better, or I just deal with things better, but getting out of bed is easier. I might not bounce out like a five year old, but at least I don't rise like a zombie from the grave anymore, popping and groaning with every move. My knee, which used to scream at me, just whispers now. For a short while my back actually hurt more after correcting my stances, but it was just an ache from muscles unused to the posture, now the original pain is less.
It's funny. I used to be afraid that my time was running out, that the cumulative damage done through the years would finally shut me down and make me unable to train anymore. So maybe I rushed a few things, got started on the Tiger Crane way too fast to pass through it on the way to the Five Animals and Five Elements, as I've heard it's supposed to be very good for organs and bones and such. Would be bloody funny if when I finally get to it I don't need it like I thought I did. Considering I've only done Kung Gee Fook Fu for maybe 5-6 months and I feel this kind of improvement (sleeping on the couch and waking up like a pretsel doesn't invalidate that,) I might still have a few good years left. And I'm only 36, while TenTigers is far more mature and rich in years and wisdom than that.
Like Sifu Bucksam Kong states in the book Gung Gee Fook Fu: "Most important, it is the health which will develop through practicing. The self defense techniques that one accomplishes will be surpassed by the value of the mind and body development that the Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen endows upon the practitioner who perseveres in its study."
I should bloody write that down on a note the next time people ask why I train so hard, since I don't go to tourneys and prizefights and such. (Like yeah right, I hurt now, why would I make it worse?) Also, to the inveterate killjoy in the breakroom wondering if there was a technique against guns, I can always say that now I can run really fast, hehe.
It's funny. I used to be afraid that my time was running out, that the cumulative damage done through the years would finally shut me down and make me unable to train anymore. So maybe I rushed a few things, got started on the Tiger Crane way too fast to pass through it on the way to the Five Animals and Five Elements, as I've heard it's supposed to be very good for organs and bones and such. Would be bloody funny if when I finally get to it I don't need it like I thought I did. Considering I've only done Kung Gee Fook Fu for maybe 5-6 months and I feel this kind of improvement (sleeping on the couch and waking up like a pretsel doesn't invalidate that,) I might still have a few good years left. And I'm only 36, while TenTigers is far more mature and rich in years and wisdom than that.
Like Sifu Bucksam Kong states in the book Gung Gee Fook Fu: "Most important, it is the health which will develop through practicing. The self defense techniques that one accomplishes will be surpassed by the value of the mind and body development that the Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen endows upon the practitioner who perseveres in its study."
I should bloody write that down on a note the next time people ask why I train so hard, since I don't go to tourneys and prizefights and such. (Like yeah right, I hurt now, why would I make it worse?) Also, to the inveterate killjoy in the breakroom wondering if there was a technique against guns, I can always say that now I can run really fast, hehe.
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by vaulander » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:00 pm
Greetings people. Scott and I were fortunate enough to meet up with a Hung Gar practitioner a week ago, and got some corrections and adjustments made. Today is the first time I got a clip of myself doing the 'renovated' Kung Gee, but unfortunately I didn't remember all the tips, and I am correcting stances as I go, trying to make sure my balance and posture is right. I am still leaning a bit too much forward though. I am years from doing it properly, but hopefully I am doing it a little better now.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDD72YPWdn4[/youtube]
Comments VERY welcome!
Cheers!
V.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDD72YPWdn4[/youtube]
Comments VERY welcome!
Cheers!
V.
Here's to cheating, stealing, fighting, and drinking.
If you cheat, may you cheat death.
If you steal, may you steal a woman's heart.
If you fight, may you fight for a brother.
And if you drink, may you drink with me.
If you cheat, may you cheat death.
If you steal, may you steal a woman's heart.
If you fight, may you fight for a brother.
And if you drink, may you drink with me.
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by Asmo » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:11 am
Thats showing a lot of improvement! And you lost the silk thingy around your waist too, hehe.
See if you can meet that practitioner more often... Or follow him to his sifu... It will help you make far bigger jumps forwards then you would be bale on your own.
See if you can meet that practitioner more often... Or follow him to his sifu... It will help you make far bigger jumps forwards then you would be bale on your own.
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by vaulander » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:43 pm
I know full well the thoughts on belts and sashes among the traditionalists, and I agree with that. I also know the thoughts on belts here in America, and Europe, at least the Scandinavian part of it. Personally I don't really care, except for three things. What I am wearing most of the time is a rope belt, which has a flat part around the back, sort of like a colored back belt. I don't know if it helps, hinders, or makes no difference, but a little pressure on the back feels good. Second, it adds a little pressure on the tan tien, reminding me that if I don't feel it, I don't breathe right. Third, it keeps the nice silky uniform from flapping in the wind and catching my hands on it. I could go on forever, but it's not really important to what I am doing now. At this point I don't care if I wear the same belt for the next 20 years, I like the black/yellow color combination. The boys might need a little extra incentive from time to time when they slack off, and that's not a big issue. They are young and restless.
Thank you for your compliment. I am still working on it, and have gotten more comments and advice on the clip I put up from him. Unfortunately he comes to USA only once a year, and it was a big stroke of luck meeting up with him. Next year we are going there again, and hopefully I won't be such a ragdoll in his hands, hehe. I will post another clip at least once a week to judge my progress.
Cheers!
V.
Thank you for your compliment. I am still working on it, and have gotten more comments and advice on the clip I put up from him. Unfortunately he comes to USA only once a year, and it was a big stroke of luck meeting up with him. Next year we are going there again, and hopefully I won't be such a ragdoll in his hands, hehe. I will post another clip at least once a week to judge my progress.
Cheers!
V.
Here's to cheating, stealing, fighting, and drinking.
If you cheat, may you cheat death.
If you steal, may you steal a woman's heart.
If you fight, may you fight for a brother.
And if you drink, may you drink with me.
If you cheat, may you cheat death.
If you steal, may you steal a woman's heart.
If you fight, may you fight for a brother.
And if you drink, may you drink with me.
- vaulander
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- Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:32 am
by ironpalm » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:59 pm
I believe that sashes were originally used to give support to the dan tien... of course they're also good at holding up baggy kung fu pants too. 
When wrapped correctly, they do add a lot of support and do feel good.
When wrapped correctly, they do add a lot of support and do feel good.-
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by Asmo » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:33 pm
Oh, I fully support the functional reasons to use a belt, its just that those silky flashy versions don't provide you any of those I wear sturdy cotton belts for the same reasons you stated. I used to wear silky ones in the school I trained and over time I got problems with my back. Wearing a proper belt (amongst adjusting my movements) fixed those problems for me.
For the rest, keep adjusting. Kungfu is a commitment of a lifetime full of adjusting. Noone will ever stop adjusting and improving, it is simply impossible in kungfu to 'be there'.
For the rest I agree with ironpalm to focus on as few movements as possible instead of a whole set. And certainly not multiple sets. GGFFK is enough for many years, trust me
I wear sturdy cotton belts for the same reasons you stated. I used to wear silky ones in the school I trained and over time I got problems with my back. Wearing a proper belt (amongst adjusting my movements) fixed those problems for me.
For the rest, keep adjusting. Kungfu is a commitment of a lifetime full of adjusting. Noone will ever stop adjusting and improving, it is simply impossible in kungfu to 'be there'.
For the rest I agree with ironpalm to focus on as few movements as possible instead of a whole set. And certainly not multiple sets. GGFFK is enough for many years, trust me
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