outpointing toes in horse stance

[Frank Bolte]

in my gung gee video comments on you tube this became a bit of a toppic..If I do the horse stance with the toes straight I cant sit really low...so my toes are slightly outwards..lets say on 11 and 1 o´clock
Otherwise my knees hurt and my horse stance is very high...

Now someone said I´d lose my base of support..but I feel the other way around..if I keep my toes straight I feel I go against my body...

what are ur opinions ?

thanks

[PM]

dear Franky,

thanks for the topic. my 2 cents:

toes pointing forward are one of the main principles of sei ping ma, my sifu is very strict about it, BUT everybody is different, everybody's body structure is different and gungfu teaches you to listen to your body, so the stance has to be adjusted a little so you do not hurt yourself. also, when you perform the set slowly, the stance is lower and more accurate, when you do your set fast, the stance is slightly higher and the toes can point slightly out (but just slightly, as it affects the stability both in sei ping ma and sei ping baat fan ma).

also, we do not go so low in the stance, thighs are slightly higher then parallel to the floor.

anyway, this is the ideal sei ping ma (notice that even our sijou has toes slightly outside on the picture, but really slightly):



in my school, one of the main reasons of the knees hurting is usually toes going over the toes; the knees should be right in the line with the toes, and not forward. it is easier to sit in such a horse stance, but the knees bear most of the weight. it should be the overall structure of the stance which bears the weight.

as for the comments on YouTube: do not worry, i am sure you know what you are doing.

all the best, i am looking forward to see more videos uf Lau Ga Hung Kyun.

[Asmo]

I hardly ever see people pointing their toes exactly straight forward, there seems to be a slight angle always. Although its learned as "keep them parallel" theres almost always a slight angle.

That said, I did notice your stances are much deeper then we do them, but I think that's a Lau family flavor. And the deeper you go, the harder it will be to keep them exactly parallel.

My sifu says much the same as PM did above: ultimately its about you being able to fight, if that means you have to adapt to make it work, you'll need to do so. I guess as long as you're aware, and doing it correctly. Forcing yourself into something that doesn't work compromises your ability to fight, which should always be the main goal I think. If its just about the form and looks you're doing modern wushu?

I have an article where someone did a comparison of several masters (including Lam Sai Wing) and a general article about mabu. Not that many have their feet perfectly parallel at all. Seems the article is not available online anymore as a whole, so I'll post it below:

[Frank Bolte]

Hey Pm and Asmo,

thanks for the input,very helpful.Its true,the lower I go the more my toes wanna go out...the low horse we practise is actually from our malaysian influence..my Sifu has plenty of exercises regarding the horse stance..
Asmo,thanks for the scan!

[Chris H]

[mok]

[Chunyat]

[Frank Bolte]

Just had a convo with my Sifu and I wanna quote this

"alot of people dont understand you MUST CHANGE THE KUNG FU TO SUIT YOUR BODY not change your body because if its un-natural under stress the body would forget everything you learned"
just out of context but it was about my horse stance..

[prayingmantis888]

[Mig]

If we look in the past, horse stance both in Karate-do and Kung-fu was very popular during the 60's and during those days the stance I learned was toes forward, knees outward and pelvis in (dantian) and as low as it was possible according to your body structure and height. I found that when I see today practicioners either perform a set or fight the horse stance doesn't remain low, it is more ups than down. This reminds me our primate behavior which is to use mainly our upper body just like when you climb rocks, you will notice that most of people will rely on their arms and little of their legs. I always found that keeping my low posture, I can perform better and work better my knees. And now when I think about it in a set the horse may vary and you have to adjust your feet from horse stance to ziwuma (bow and arrow) for an effective push or punch.

My two cents

Mig

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