Hung Kyun and baak hok/Hap ga/lama paai connections

[Chris H]

There are also stories that state that Tit Kiu Sam (i.e. Leung Gwan) studied Lama first. He started with long hand skills and eventually moved to short hand.

[Chunyat]

[Cola di Montecorso]

[PM]

so the 2 sources are actually 1, post-Lam Saiwing and non-Gwongdung. i really do not it is correct, based on what i have heard and what i have read in extensive bigoraphies of Lam Saiwing written by his students or people who knew him personaly, from his times and area.

[Cola di Montecorso]

[PM]

[Cola di Montecorso]

[Cola di Montecorso]

Okay, don't want to hyjack this discussion but I found this older posting on KFMF.

Lam Sai Wing and the Southern Central Kuo Shu Institute

After the 1928 First National Tournament, the Kuo Ming Tung or the Central National Arts Provincial schools, under General Chang Chih Chang, appointed five (5) masters who became known as the Five Tigers From The North. These men are recorded in the text, Wu Lin Chang Ku, as the Five Tigers heading south of Chiangnan. These masters were Kuo Yu Chiang of Northern Shao lin and Cha Styles, Wan Li Sheng of Northern Shao lin and Spontaneous Boxing, Fu Chen Sung of Fu style Pa Kua, Wang Shao Chou of Northern Shao lin and Cha Styles and Li Hsin Wu of Northern Shao lin and Spontaneous Boxing. Also included were three (3) well known masters who were Keng Te Hai, an expert in Tai Shan Style or monkey Style, Tung Yin Chieh, who was a Tai Chi master, and Sun Yu Fung. The Kuo Ming Tung requested the Ching Wu Cultural Association to send four (4) representatives: Chen Tzu Sheng of Northern Shao Lin Eagle Claw style, Lo Kwang Yu of Northern Praying Mantis (Seven Star), Keng Cha Kuan of Hsing I internal style, and Wu Chien Chuan of Wu style Tai Chi. Together they were ordered to discuss and develop the best techniques of each style and to put aside their prejudices of different styles. As a result they developed a diverse style called Long Fist that became very popular. The Five Tigers From The North were ordered by the Kuo Ming Tung to go south to Canton. They were ordered to meet with southern masters to form martial art schools and combine their styles together to form new and effective techniques. General Li Chao and six (6) southern masters were to form a new Kuo Ming Tung Association in Canton. The six (6) southern masters were Lin Yin Tang of Mo Gar style, Tam San of Ts'ai Li Fut style, Lin Yao Kuei of Dragon style, Chang Li Chuan of White Eye Brow style, Lin Shih Jung (= Lam Sai Wing)of Hung Gar style and Wu Chien Chuan of White Crane style. As a result, many new styles developed. Of these "new" styles, the most popular was North Wind Ts'ai Li Fut.
The defeat of the twelve (12) champions of the 1928 tournament by Wan Li Sheng was recognized by the Kuo Ming Tung. They appointed Wan Li Sheng as director of the Kwangsi Province school and gave him the rank of Major General. Many masters became jealous of Wan Li Sheng's accomplishment and of his young age of thirty five (35). As a result many southern masters challenged Wan Li Sheng but each one fell before the superior skills of Wan Li Sheng. Many of the defeated masters acknowledged Wan Li Sheng's skills and described his abilities: " Wan Li Sheng's hands moved like ropes and his fingers were like iron hooks. He rushes forward like a hurricane and backed away like a torrential waters." Wherever he went, he was always surrounded by admiring followers who came from various parts of the country to learn from him. By 1930, Wan Li Sheng was very famous and many people regarded him as the symbol of Chinese Martial Arts. Since martial arts and Wan Li Sheng's fame did not "bloom" until after the 1928 National Tournament, many people call Wan Li Sheng the "Flower of the National Arts".
The Chief Army Officer was Li Chi Shen and he appointed Wan Li Sheng, who was a graduate from Peking University, to be head of both National Arts Provinces school in Kwangsi and Kwangtung and Kuo Yu Chang to be in charge of Kwangtung Province. Wan Li Sheng instructed everyone to assist Wang Shao Chou in developing a standard curriculum and they all decided to use the set, Lien Bo, from Wu Chih Ch’ing as the basic set. While KuoYu Chang was there, he met Ch’ien Chan Sheng who taught him Ch’a style.
(Northern Shaolin / 23.01.01 / Kungfu Magazin Forum / Shaolin Kung Fu)

In this text Lam Sai Wing appears as one of the 'Six Tigers From The South'.

[PM]

[Cola di Montecorso]

[PM]

[Cola di Montecorso]

[Cola di Montecorso]

[Cola di Montecorso]

To go back to the subject:

I would not be surprised to hear or read that LSW made FHSYK. And in fact it has already been layed down.

And to continue further: This FHSYK style/form was (and still is) so powerful that all the other branches* took this new FHSYK into their curriculum. Indeed powerful, then Lam's HG Kwoon had the largest following.
These things happened before and still happen today. So nothing new.

* Actually only one branch.
Just Mok Gwei Lan and students. She was always involved with her HG brothers of the Lam and Chiu Family, as photographs proof. And did not CCL tell us that he studied a bit with MGL?
And how come they have a Gung Ji Fuk Fu Kuen, that was developed by LSW?
And Tang Fung? He already had followed Lam Sai Wing and afterwards studied the old style with WFH. Back to the roots he must have thought.

Is there any proof for this or will we still chase legends?

One fact to keep in mind: Chinese are uneven historians....as are most HG practitioners. Blinded by the aesthetics of our forms and embracing our romantic legends.

Time for a Porto Reservata!
Greetings,
Nicola

[Cola di Montecorso]

In closing I found this translated text from Leung Daat's HG book.

Forms of Wong Fei Hung

The form Gung Ji Fuk Fu Kuen was developed by Lam Sai Wing. He also made Fu Hok Sheung Ying Kuen (Tiger Crane Boxing) popular.
Gung Ji Fuk Fu Kuen was choreographed around the beginning of the Qing dynasty (1912) and was developed upon the many techniques and forms Lam learned from his master Wong Fei Hung.

At first Master Wong Fei Hung had this curriculum:

1. Sei Ping Lok Chan Kuen - Four Levels Six Controlling Fist
2. Saam Tzien Kuen - Three Arrow Fist
3. Ye Fu Chat Lam - Night Tiger Comes Out of the Forrest
4. Seung Lung Kuen - Double Dragon Fist
5. Daan Gung Fuk Fu Kuen - Single Taming Tiger Fist
6. Siu Hung Kuen - Little Hung Kuen
7. Lo Han Paau Mo Ying Guek - Lohan Rope and No Shadow Kick
8. Lo Han Gam Tsien Biu – Lohan Golden Coin and Dart Throwing Art
9. Sei Tzeung Biu Lung Kwan - Four Hexagram Dragon Stick

Later in his life his curriculum was:

1. Daan Gung Kuen - Single Gung Character Fist
2. Seung Gung Kuen - Double Gung Character Fist
3. Daan Gung Fuk Fu Kuen - Single Bow Taming Tiger Fist
4. Seung Gung Fuk Fu Kuen - Double Bow Taming Tiger Fist
5. Mang Fu Kuen - Fierce Tiger Fist
6. Sei Tzeung Biu Lung Kwan - Four Hexagram Dragon Stick
7. Ji Mo Do - Buterfly Knives/Mother Son Swords
8. Mo Ying Guek - Shadowless Kick
9. Haak Fu Jau - Black Tiger Claw



No FHSYK in Wong Fei Hung's curriculum.
IMHO this form was created later by Master Lam Sai Wing.