Gwa & Jik Combo = Wood or Water Element?

[Subitai]

I can sympathize with what Michael was saying.

Perhaps it truely is different now. Mabe the old days are gone however.

............................

I know this about my personal training. If my sifu said practice this, I just did it... all day if I had to. Hours and hours untill he noticed me again and then gave me something else.


I used to joke with him about the saying " A 1000 times to become like natural"

I would say, "you know, if you told me at 200 I would have gotten it sooner"
To which he would reply..." You only say that now because you did all the work"


To me, Michael is perhaps speaking about "Eating Bitter"

Is that saying still in fashion????

[Xiaobian]

Perhaps there is a slight difference between "asking the sifu questions" and "questioning the sifu", am I right?

It goes without saying that "questioning the sifu" is pointless. Sifu knows what sifu knows, and teaches you in a way for a reason.
Exploring what sifu teaches with a thirst for understanding, however, is totally acceptable. However, that does not mean that sifu will answer every question. As we all know, words are rather limiting when trying to "grasp" a concept in kung-fu. Sifu can be asked many questions about a concept, but in the end still say, "no you're doing it wrong because you're trying too hard; it's something you will understand after eating bitter"

"Asking the sifu questions", is unavoidable in this new era where sifus are more like personal trainers than father figures. Sifu may or may not answer in a satisfactory way. Eating bitter is a necessity for progress.

"Questioning the sifu", usually a waste of time, but if you haven't already been humbled after your questioning several times, then maybe it is because there is a problem with who is teaching, how s/he is teaching, or what you really want to learn. This is the phenomena of "sifu-as-personal-trainer"; if you keep questioning your teacher, then perhaps the teacher is not the right one for you.

[inthebakyard]

I totally agree with Daifong on all points he made. I might just be ignorant of any other way. Its just the way I was taught.

Questions were NEVER discouraged, one just had to wait for the teacher to ask YOU, not the other way around... in fact we were asked repeatedly "Any questions?" Its just that one had to understand. Once a question was posed, that there was going to be a very "rigorous" explanation. This process seemed two-fold in purpose. 1) It made sure that no "trivial" questions were asked, as there was a certain "price" to pay for the knowledge and the currency was sweat and pain. 2) I felt once I understood why the process was the way it was, that there WAS NO BETTER WAY to transmit said knowledge from teacher to student.

Once again this may just be a case of my own ignorance on the subject, as I have never known another way. Its also something for which I am deeply grateful.

/salute to traditional masters and their methods!!

[Itinerant_Phenomenologist]

I can understand the roots and charms of both approaches. Coming from a philosophy background, and currently a law school background, questioning is extremely ingrained into my personality. It's even made evident in my signature after my posts.

However, being trained by family might have also skewed my perception of how things should be conducted. I was never discouraged to ask questions and always tolerated with long stories. It's just the long stories and explanations were done while I was still moving around and repeating the drills he was telling me to do.

It's undeniable that different people learn in different fashions, and some require different forms of motivation and reasoning to help them through the training. It's very common in the martial arts for a sifu to have many many students in their lifetime, but only several being of a certain quali that he/she would be comfortable making into instructors/sifus in their own right.

What Daifong and Subitai are expressing, the classical way of "sifu knows best" and to keep doing until they think you're ready, is by no means a bad way of doing things. A good sifu can indeed judge accurately by watching actions alone to see whether an individual is ready for new material without having any dialogue. Much like in figure skating, where a coach will just tell the skater to do certain motions and then observe the patterns made on the ice by their blade to see whether the skater indeed is improving, a martial arts sifu can likewise watch the student and figure out when they have internalized the concepts and gained a new level through practice.

In the end, martial arts is an expression of physical culture so the primary ruler to measure the adequacy of an individual to be a sifu should be how well they can internalize, express and, if need be, improvise that physical culture to meet any and all situations. But to get to that level of internalization, expression, and comfortable improvisation may require a satiation of intellectual puzzles... and I see nothing wrong with that so long as sight is never lost that the goal is a thing of physical culture, not intellectual exercise.

Some people can assemble a machine by just looking at pictures and numbers. Others require the text blocks next to the pictures to explain precisely how things fit. Some might eve need to look at both picture and text block before feeling comfortable in hammering pieces together. The end goal is successful construction of an item. No different with the martial arts. Some just require the sifu to tell them a drill and they will do it until they get it right. Some may require both a demonstration of the drill and verbal instructions/answers to questions before they feel they can do the drill adequately. The end goal is still successful correct practice.

Just my rambles during a writing break. Cheers.

[inthebakyard]

[Bamboo]

[markt]

[Daifong]

Ask one question, ok. But make sure it is a good question (if you have just one, you choose more carefully), then really listen to the Sifu's answer, and demonstrate (through practice) just how it made a difference that he answered you.

This is quite different from validation-seeking attitudes/ behaviors, where the student's main goal is to "be right" all the time, by amassing a lot of irrelevant information. After some length of time in committed practice, it becomes apparent what the art is, and what so many people say it is. This isn't done by trying to "second-guess" your Sifu.

For example, at the Gung Ji level, it does not particularly help to think about the Gwa Da Chui as "Wood". If you are training the full Five Elements in your program, it can be a useful way to organize techniques. Otherwise, it's just another case of "too much information", lol.

Back on the topic of asking one's Sifu questions (or other person whose opinion we respect), it can be quite valuable to understand that we may not have criteria to frame our question adequately.

Therefore, a question should just be looked at as a means to "get the ball rolling", and now we give the respected person his room to speak. Then, really give some thought to the reply, before just firing off another question.

This is due to the fact that, as "beginner/ indeterminate-level" students (and even if we may feel that we're "advanced"), what we think we want, and what we actually need, are quite likely not to be what we first thought.

Thus, your Sifu has all the room he needs to set your concept straight from the foundation up, and you're not just asking him to build on some faulty assumption, equivalent to you having fired the last contractor for doing everything wrong, but now expect the next contractor to proceed, by building upon the faultiness left behind.

Do we really want the Sifu just to humor us, with whatever it is we may think we want to hear?

[JPC]

Hi Michael,

Sorry to be contrary (no offence intended), but I do revolt against the "Sifu is wise and knows best" generalisation. Sifu's differ, students differ. As long as there is respect and openess (hopefully both ways) then it's up to Sifu and student to find how to work together.
As you rightly said though the student has to listen.

[inthebakyard]