The spoken language of technique

[HungFamilyFist]

I have been wondering recently about how the translations come across for much of the technique we use, and also how the technique affects the words we use for it. This was Highlighted in one of Mak's posts when he mentioned "beauty looking at mirror".

I am assuming he is referring to Taan Sau(ton sau?) Which i know as the spreading hand. From what I can see and have heard, "beauty looking at mirror" is an adaptation on the english side for what many people turn into an improper technique. Now the wording of it doesnt always mean it's taught improperly, but I have seen personally, and heard of times when it is wrong.

"beauty looking at mirror" Implies that a woman is holding a mirror in front of her face, palm flush to her face, at a 90 degree angle. I have even heard this phrase used as a derogatory phrase for people who taught bad gung fu(I am not implying that here though). What I am curious about from the regular panel here is this: Does this mean you perform your Taan Sau at a 90 degree angle? If so, I would like to discuss the positives and negatives of the angle used and adjusting it.

Observer my powerful MSpaint skills:



from my point of view, this is how i view the use of taan sau. at 90 degrees, it is vulnerable to crushing blows. The opponent can press at it and break through. At 0 degrees, it is a non factor. At 45 degrees, it is strongest. It's more stable, and more conducive to Lap, Tok, Bil, etc.

So my question for you all again is this: How do you use Taan Sau? What reasons do you see for that use? What ways have the wording of a technique affected the application of it?

[PM]

my 2 cents: based on what we do, WCH taan sau and HK jiu geng sau (mirror hand) are 2 different techniques.

WCH taan sau is more like our (or CLF) chyun kiu, ie. going out, also to elbow and wrist alignement is different (in taan sau, the elbow is even more in than in jiu ganeg sau,and the forearm out). jiu geng sau is basically yau kiu/lau kiu, ie. soft, receiving.

anyway, pict 3 is more or less structurally and mechanicaly correct

[HungFamilyFist]

interesting. Because I have heard "beauty looking at mirror" was directly related to Taan Sau, in the Wing Chun world. Like i said, it was used in a manor of one WC player looking down on others for doing it that way.

So what is the energy of this other strike? Is it like a block that I would consider similar to a karate block? Very rigid?

PS - this is exactly the type of thing i was talking about. How the words mean different thing.

[PM]

WCH taan sau



HK jiu geng sau/tiu sau - side view (top row, second from the right)



if i could show you, it would be easy to understand in a second

taan sau is no rigid block, altough it could be done with (hard) force. anyway, our (and WCH) gong always has some yau inside, a vice versa, no Shotokan

some WCH branches do taan sau similar to our jiu geng sau (and call it mei yan jiu geng, like Pang Naam WCH - Pang Naam has however practiced HK for couple of decades). same thing for HK. we have eg. similar move to taan sau in butterfly palms "blocks"

all the best

[HungFamilyFist]

gotcha. interesting still.

[TenTigers]

I have seen (and participated in) discussions (arguments) on forums where people will claim that taan-sao is "only" this done in this way, or that mai yun jiew gang is not tan-sao, etc. It leads to dead-end thinking.
In my opinion and experience with many different teachers, tan-sao, and jiew gang sao, are describing positions, rather than technique and application. There are many, many ways to use this.
The argument for ninety degree position can be looked at as a locking technique, but for 'blocking'-for lack of a better word, the structure in diagram three is (inmho) correct. Again, usage will dictate structure, and there are many permutations of such.

[HungFamilyFist]

Very true TT.

And again, i'm not trying to make an argument, just looking for clarification. I like to see whats out in the world

[markt]

As far as I know, the posture in the first row is not 'beauty looking in the mirror'.. you can find it in the third row, second from the left, however.
Though from a still point they might look somewhat similar, the direction & energy is quite different.

When comparing to wing chun 'taan sau', the reason for proper structure is slightly different from taan sau, which requires strength going outward.
In 'beauty looking in mirror', the strength is coming from outside to inside and yet this structure still makes a difference...

Try using this against your opponent's attack closer to your body, you'll see that you are not protecting yourself very well..if you use the 'proper' angle, you will force your opponent off of your center with enough room that he will miss you completely.

[PM]

markt: both of them are called "beauty looking in the mirror" (mei yan jiu geng)

- the one i have mentioned is "from inside gate to outside gate", using the thumb side of your kiu sau, closer to taan sau (but still different). it i the same one as:



- the other one you have mentioned is from "outside gate to inside gate", in a way of "choping palm" (pek jeung), using the little finger side of your kiu sau. it is a totally different technique from WCH taan sau. we do not use it only as block - strike (swallow - spit), but also as a kam na sau technique.

all the best

[markt]

I actually don't think either of these are similar to WC's taan sau.

The technique we are referring to in Gung Ji (first row, second from right in the pictures) is also slightly different than the 'beauty looking in the mirror' in Fu Hok.
Although they are both inside to outside, Gung Ji emphasizes the other hand pulling inward, as well as using a different stance.. This suggests a different usage.

The Lam Sai Wing books also do not name this technique (first row, second from the right) as 'beauty looking in the mirror'.

[PM]

hello markt

- as for the analysis, please see my previous posts. i also think the technique is definitelly different from WCH taan sau. that is why i said similar, not same.

- in the the gjffk and fhsyk the techniques are exactly the same, of course the context is different (bong sau, chin ji sau in gjffk, fuk fu sau in fhsyk), so might me the usage.

- the name is "beauty looking into the mirror" or "jade maiden looking in the mirror", does not matter what so called "Lam Saiwing's books" (written by his student Jyu Yujai) say or not. in all Naam Siulam Gungfu the name of the technique is the same. the other, descriptive/non-poetic name is tiu sau, chau sau, etc.

fhsyk and tsk have the 4 characters poetic name for all of the techniques/pics, gjffk does not ,just for few of them. i have a hand written 4 characters poetic names for all the techniqes of gjffk, written by student of Lam Saiwing.

all the best

[HungFamilyFist]

[TenTigers]

If you are saying."This is NOT WCK's Tan-Sau," you need to further clarify,Who's WCK? I have seen many WCK schools, and many variations of Tan-sau. Some WCK Sifus have several variations of tan-sau, not only in usage, but in structure, energy,theory as well. Even within the same family, such as Yip Man;s WCK, there exist many different variations among teachers-"Gwok Si, Gwok Faht." Perhaps this is not YOUR teacher's tan-sau. It's a big world out there. Many different versions, lines of WCK-Wing Chun, Weng Chun, Wing Chun Fukien Bak-Hohk P'ai, Gu-Lo, Yuen Kay-San, etc.
"How many WCK practitioners does it take to screw in a lightbulb?"
"Three. One to put it in, and the other two to say,"That's good, but we do it a little different."

[PM]

TT: yes, you are right, but anyway, most of the families i have seen (Yip Man, Chan Yiumin, Gulou, Mai Gei Wong, Pang Naam, Fung Siuching, Se ying, Hung Syun... ) do the taan sau more or less same

[Subitai]