hello,
we all know that both Hung Kyun and Xingyiquan (Yingyikyun) have "five elements", and hat the techniques and concepts have little common. however, i just came accross this interesting text, written by Wang Xiangzhai of yiquan/dachenquan:
Wang Xiangzhai Discusses the Essence of Martial Art Science - An Interview with Mr. Wang Xiangzhai, trabslated by Timo Heikkila, Yiquan Online, 2006.
----
[about original Xingyi]
"It did not had the theory of the mutual generation and destruction of the five elements, there were just the five elements that five kinds of strength were named after.
...
I remember well the words of my late teacher about the five elements:
Metal means strength contained in the muscles and the bones, the mind being firm like iron and stone, being able to cut gold and steel.
Wood has the meaning of the bending but rooted posture of a tree.
Water means force like the waves of the vast sea, lively like the dragon and the snake, able to pervade everywhere when used.
Fire means strength being like gunpowder, fists being like fired bullets, having the strength to burn the opponents body by the first touch.
Earth means that one's use of strength is honest and sincere, wide and solid; one posses great bravenes, having force that unites the heaven an earth.
This is the syncretism of the five elements. it has nothing to do with one technique overcoming another technique as the modern people claim.
---
what an interesting analysis - does not it fit our ng hang kyun (more than today's Xingyi wu xing quan?)? i think this quotation could be a nice start to 5 elements discussion.
all the best
five elements
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by Chris H » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:25 am
Pavel,
I agree, and I think all one would need do is look to the sequence of the elements as they are presented within Hung Kuen to see that what Wang said rings true.
I agree, and I think all one would need do is look to the sequence of the elements as they are presented within Hung Kuen to see that what Wang said rings true.
Ubi dubium ibi libertas: Where there is doubt, there is freedom- Latin proverb
Unanswered questions are far less dangerous than unquestioned answers- Unknown
Unanswered questions are far less dangerous than unquestioned answers- Unknown
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Chris H - Posts: 89
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by Asmo » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:50 am
Hmm I don't hope this is too off-topic but theres a thing about the elements in Hung Gar that have been puzzling me a bit for quite some time.
Here and there scattered in the forms there are elemental punches. Dividing gold, wood punch, water punch, earth & fire. All very clear and I can relate to the energies of each. (PM you'd like to discuss these one-by-one (in separate threads?) in comparison with the Xingyi interpretation?).
But then you have the sequence in Fu Hok, the chut sing/elemental punches. Although some are clear like water and earth overall the sequence has a bit of a different feel over them compared to the single techniques scattered in the forms. Some of the punches I have seen different elements attached to it as well in different schools. Obviously theres some unclarity.
As I understand now the series is water, wood, earth, metal and ending with a fire punch.
Anyone can add some extra information on this?
On a sidenote, to understand the energies of the martial elemental techniques I found it clarifying to read layman books on TCM. "The Complete Book of Chinese Medicine" by Wong Kiew Tit for example.
Although the applications might be different (for example between Hung Gar and Xingyi), the underlying principles of the elements are the same, which are about processes and energy flows rather than solid substantial elements as interpreted in 'the west' (actual water, metal, air, etc). Those flows of energy are recognizable in our martial techniques.
Anyone any other info for self studies of the elements?
Here and there scattered in the forms there are elemental punches. Dividing gold, wood punch, water punch, earth & fire. All very clear and I can relate to the energies of each. (PM you'd like to discuss these one-by-one (in separate threads?) in comparison with the Xingyi interpretation?).
But then you have the sequence in Fu Hok, the chut sing/elemental punches. Although some are clear like water and earth overall the sequence has a bit of a different feel over them compared to the single techniques scattered in the forms. Some of the punches I have seen different elements attached to it as well in different schools. Obviously theres some unclarity.
As I understand now the series is water, wood, earth, metal and ending with a fire punch.
Anyone can add some extra information on this?
On a sidenote, to understand the energies of the martial elemental techniques I found it clarifying to read layman books on TCM. "The Complete Book of Chinese Medicine" by Wong Kiew Tit for example.
Although the applications might be different (for example between Hung Gar and Xingyi), the underlying principles of the elements are the same, which are about processes and energy flows rather than solid substantial elements as interpreted in 'the west' (actual water, metal, air, etc). Those flows of energy are recognizable in our martial techniques.
Anyone any other info for self studies of the elements?
- Asmo
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by PM » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:33 pm
seui long paau cheui is first and second star of chat sing lin waan cheui. fire punch is a fire punch, kau (jong) is more tou paau cheui (earth throwing punch) like. no wood imho, gold, well - no separating/dividing (fan) in a fan gam cheui sense
what i mean
- chat sing lin waan cheui are not necessarily all elements included; just an interesting (most of the time) long hand combo - all techniques could be offensive blocks or strikes; fhsyk has more combo like this
- i like more the 12 bridges approach than 5 elements; 5 elements is more simple southern boxing to me (some of Lam Saiwing's favourite hands), 12 elements are more conceptual. i just led a seminar on gn hang last week - drills, appliaction drills, pad drills - not hard to learn, not hard to use, just footwork, body and hit'n'strike - not thatmuch theory
what i mean
- chat sing lin waan cheui are not necessarily all elements included; just an interesting (most of the time) long hand combo - all techniques could be offensive blocks or strikes; fhsyk has more combo like this
- i like more the 12 bridges approach than 5 elements; 5 elements is more simple southern boxing to me (some of Lam Saiwing's favourite hands), 12 elements are more conceptual. i just led a seminar on gn hang last week - drills, appliaction drills, pad drills - not hard to learn, not hard to use, just footwork, body and hit'n'strike - not thatmuch theory
Pavel Macek
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PM - Posts: 1571
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