Shifting from horse to bow, etc

[TenTigers]

everyone seems to have a different answer to this, some shift on their heels, some on the balls of the feet, some on the yung chun point, some on the balls, but slam the heel.
How do you shift, and why?
I start my students on the heels, then move to the last method. I do this because it has been my experience that beginners have a tendancy to pivot on the balls of their feet and then have a hard time getting the root, so it is a learning process.

[HungGarAZ]

I demonstrate this to students by positioning myself with my fist flat against a target (bag, wall, partner's chest... whatever). I then settle back into sei ping ma and execute a punch pivoting first on the heel and then on the ball. By pivoting on the ball of the foot (heel moving backwards) I lose between 6 and 9 inches of range. When I'm on the heel, my fist connects right back where it was.

This seems to make applicable sense to me and, as you mentioned, is easy for newer students to grasp. From there, much of it is a more advanced sense of gauging and ranging as well as transfer of power.

[Itinerant_Phenomenologist]

Maybe I'm not understanding the descriptions of the scenario correctly but allow me my two cents for what they're worth.

[I had to google the foot meridian points to know what the "yung chun" point referred. Didn't help that google only did it in Mandarin so "yung chun" kept directing me to wing chun... but eventually I found the "Yongquan xue" so I'll work off of that picture]

Pivoting directly off the ball of the foot seems to be what boxers do when they execute their straights. It seems to maximize body mass behind the punch as well as distance gained with the motion. However, I think HG practitioners (from my experience), pivot more on the "Yongquan" point; not quite so forward on the foot as the ball-proper, but forward enough to get good connection for power while adding some distance and maintaining "fail-safe rooting". The pivot ends with the foot establishing itself firmly back on the ground. I think this fashion is preferred for the HG practitioner over the "ball of the foot" proper because the boxer fashion indeed gives you the most distance and the most weight behind the fist, but it sacrifices a degree of balance... but not as much as my next observation......

Regarding "fail safe rooting'... I've never found pivoting off the heel to be efficacious. My reason is that when you pivot, that means you leave a portion of your foot off the floor in order to twist. Pivoting with the front (ball/yongquan), which entails putting weight toward the front of the foot and lifting the heel slightly for pivot, allows you the luxury of landing back on your heels should your punch meet something too solid to go through. However, if you launch the punch from a heel-pivot, meaning the front of your foot is off the floor and you swivel on your heel, should you meet an uncompromising target with your fist, you don't have the luxury of space or leverage to re-balance; you'll be pushed backward. This is made even worse by the fact that if your weight is heel centred and the front portion of the foot is slightly raised... as you move backward you will naturally try to plant your entire foot on the ground and this adds a backward pushing force which makes the uprooting sensation even worse.

But, as I always say, I could be wrong. Merely a matter of experience and observation from my single point of view.

[Daifong]

As you already know, there are other systems influencing Hung Kyun, but if you are talking movements from the GJFFK, TSK, and most of FHSYK, in Ji Ng Mah/ "Forward Bow Stance", we pivot from the heel...

From Bat Fun Mah/ "Offset Horse", the front foot is already set at the desired angle, so only necessary to pivot on the rear, not both feet pivoting simultaneously like "windshield wipers", ok...

In stance-to-stance transitioning movement (like any movement), it is important to train in a progressive buildup...

Here, try this little exercise:

1) Facing toward a wall, "approximate" a Forward Bow Stance, with rear-hand Ping Choi knuckles lightly pressing into the wall at middle target level...

2) Turn out your back foot until your toes are now positioned at 90 degrees, should now be parallel to the wall, your fist pointed forward, but no longer in contact. Letting your hips settle into place, you now are in the Bat Fun Mah position...

3) From Bat Fun Mah (with knuckles of your (rear hand) fist extended toward the wall), raise the toes of your rear foot clear and away from the ground. This is to make sure there is not any weight transfer whatsoever to the ball of the foot, at any time during your forward pivot...

4) Pivot to your Forward Bow, the knees should straighten just as your fist turns over, contacting the wall. This "screws you in" to all three points of contact...

5) Execute this drill in repetitions, and/ or hold position for 30 seconds at a time on up...

Just think about it, the Tibia/ Fibula (lower leg bones) connect directly to the point of the heel. That means that only the knee joint remains to be managed between the hip socket, and the point of grounded contact/ force transmission. Much more stable, reliable, and efficient than adding in the extra angle (of the ankle joint), which additionally offsets your point of grounded contact from your line of force transmission by as much as a "foot"!



Best,

Michael

[ironpalm]

My observation is that when you pivot on the heel to attack, your energy is going toward your target right away. Seems like everything important (dan tien/center/ hips/shoulders) is moving toward your target immediately.

When pivoting on the ball of the foot (to attack), it seems like my energy has to settle back into the heel going in the opposite direction of my intended attack. To me, not so desirable as the energy goes one way then the other. Not keeping true in terms of efficient martial arts principles.

However, having said the above, just now when trying to pivot on the ball of my foot, I get a better sense of swallowing energy and sinking my center down into my root. Probably because my stance has opened up just slightly (heel extended out). Maybe, if I had to swallow someone's energy coming into me (from a big mean ugly guy), I would pivot on the ball of my foot as part of the technique to swallow his energy then redirect... but I would pivot on my heel to directly attack for more power.

[ginosifu]

Looking at the structure of the human body, the leg bones (Tibia / Fibia) connect to the foot closest to heel. Structurally, driving from the heel would give a better connection to the Earth.

I was under the impression that most all CMA pivoted from the heel? I was taught the same thing in Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Shuai Chiao and Monkey that you pivot from the heel.

What I tell people that ask is that pivoting on the ball is just a diiferent way to express power. Tae Kwon Do players pivot on the ball... Pivoting on the ball helps them to rotate the hip. Just a diiferent way to do it I guess.

ginosifu

[markt]

Shifting from horse to bow is almost never just pivoting. In the typical scenario, I was taught to always step. The step creates the motion, not pivoting.. but there is a slight pivot on the rear foot from the heel. If you try pivoting here on the toes on your rear foot, it will be awkward and weak.

If you are using horse->bow to throw or trip, then you can pivot on the toes, to help the lower leg shoot out more..

If you transition from bow to horse and pivot on your heels you are actually moving backward slightly, so in this case, toes make more sense to me.

Typically when I ask my sifu questions like this, he answers by saying something like .. try it.. how does it feel?.. if it is awkward or unbalanced, then it is wrong.

[Itinerant_Phenomenologist]

[acknowledging the existence of a step in most cases of a shift, I'm going back to my original point of confusion/contention]

Maybe I'm just confused on how we're using the words "on" and "from" etc... but as of this moment it seems my description is not in line with how everyone else is describing. Most here seem to agree that you pivot on the heel whereas I said that pivot for me happens on what TenTigers called the Yongquan Xue.

If you will oblige me... and perhaps correct me if I'm hazy visioned... my friend linked me to this awhile ago.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB9MBcu9OXU[/youtube]


At 2:19-2:21 it seems that the shift from horse to bow happens on the front of the foot and not the heel of the foot. The weight is taken off the heel and the pivot happens with the weight distributed to the front of the foot... am I just imagining things?

[/url]

[Daifong]

I.P.,

I can't actually see your private video account, but it sounds to me like you now have two different ways of doing it, the way that I described (which is how the man explained it to me), and whatever you have just described my Si Bak Lam Janfai as doing...

Look, here's my Sifu Lam Jansing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1BRIsY3 ... _embedded#!

In addition to learning from his father, he also learned his Gung Fu from his elder brothers...

Up to you, then!



Best,

Michael

[ginosifu]

Pivoting.... maybe does not explain every situation quite so well. However, CMA in my opinion has to drive off of the heel to express the power. I have heard some people say they pivot on the balls but, they drive thru the hell when ready to hit. I have heard others say pivot off the heels then drive off the heels when hitting. Then again others have said they sorta shuffle into position and then drive from the heels.

In the end, However you get there.... driving off the heel when you express the power (hitting your opponent) should be the CMA way.

This is just my opinion.

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

another thing added to the mix: look at Lam Jun Sing's last punch.
In this case, it appears that he uses converging energy-the body shuffles slightly-front foot step, back foot catches up-whole body power moving into the strike.
Pivoting on the heel, gives you root and connection to the earth. If you build a lean-to, you would not use a stick with hinges in it to prop up the roof. Likewise, pivoting on the ball creates a "hinge," so to speak. Heel pivot provides direct alignment.
Now, when you pivot on the ball, or better yet, yungquan and "slam" the heel into the earth, you get not only the root, but the energy travels up the body-"through the legs, governed by the waist, expressed through the hands.
Now, if you add the sacrum tuck, unlock the back leg, hollow chest, sink the dantien...ok, maybe save that for a later discussion..
So..I'm still playing with this. Sometimes I don't even pivot at all. If I am in a "fighting horse," front foot 12:00, rear foot 5:00, when I turn into bow, the feet don't really have to move at all, as they are already at angles, just knees, waist, etc.
Again, looking for a definitive answer leads to,"Whatever you feel at the time, and the situation will dictate the technqie."
I think what I am really seeking is a teaching method thet will avoid frustration later on.

[ironpalm]

Do you ever get the feeling that we overthink some things?...

[Itinerant_Phenomenologist]

silence the heathen!

Only joking of course... if you're lucky...

[ironpalm]

... Bwwaaaahahahahaha!!!

[TenTigers]

One of my students, who is Chinese, has relatives who study Taekwondo.
Alot of Chinese people study TKD. When she asked why they don't train in Kung-Fu, they responded, "Kung-Fu is too profound."