UFC 124 main event aka jin cheui story

[PM]

then...







....and now

http://www.mmalinker.com/videos/view/37 ... ck-UFC-124

still the same story, or why is lead hand jab (baat fan jin cheui) such a cool weapon. no wonder it is the number 1. sap duk sau

[Daifong]

Hey, that wasn't just my imagination?!

Adjust the line, drop the horse, extend the hands...

If you see a guy who's doing that (and winning!) with a Yau Sut tattooed on his chest, you just know it's got to be good!




Best,

Michael

[Subitai]

Ok, I just watched GSP winning in part 1 of the youtube fight.

BUT.....I really, really, really have to disagree with you guys on one aspect. The western boxing jab that GSP is using (great that it is...) is not good Hung Kuen. It mabe excellent for Boxing (they said he trained under Freddie Roach) but that doesn't give it the mechanics of Kung Fu.


I'm not trying to start trouble with you guys...especially SO CLOSE to Christmas....God bless us all.

But I can't for the life of me sit back and let this go.


I've been speaking about the importance of the Western Boxing Jab since the OLD ORIGINAL SOUTHERN FIST FORUM. Yes, the same one that Illusion fist said...something like No big deal to the point I was making.

I'm going to do this one more time:

In terms of fighting, the advent of the Western Boxing Jab ( as is the sweet science of boxing) is one of the most influencial advances in fighting over the past 100 yrs.

Compare a modern jabb vs a jabb from only 100yrs ago and you have a huge change.

Now, it terms of GOOD Kung Fu...if a Hung Kuen Sifu was Correcting / Adjusting a fighter doing the "Classic Shooting Arrow Fist" done in Hung...

It would be considered poor from a traditional mindset to perform it as a western boxer would.

Modern Jabb = (many variations) No root...mobile light on the toes or sometimes heavier and settling into it (But NOT HORSE) Often used with NO commitment only to fake or set up the CROSS. This is especially important since the main goal of a jabb is NOT to knock out your opponant or to throw out your best power and have full structure behind the punch.

* Link and structure in boxing are quite different, No thought of Yin Yang. If I jabb with my left, proper is to keep my right hand by the chin as a guard. There is NO Yin energy pulling or linking back in the other direction with the opposite hand. The Chin is tucked in to minimize exposure.

Usually aimed at the head or face to set up the BOMB.

Classic Shooting Arrow Fist punch in HK ( As per PM's Illustration of LTW) =

* A HK Sifu would most likely look to the feet (stance) and structure 1st, then work his way up with corrections. Too much stuff to talk about.

Haha, from the ground up... the stance, the, knees, hips and how the dan tien links upper and lower body. The head is held straight to align with the spine and proper structure. Dipping or letting the Head Sagg Down- NOT STRAIGHT is considered Poor Form and bad alignment in most kung fu.

Right vertical fist "fires" out, is tight like a STONE before impact... the shoulder is relaxed and the elbow sunk. The left arm/fist is chambered back to send the left scapula blade shooting or helping the energy focus down the Right side punching arm. The entire structure of the upper frame is linked and connected via the dan tien down through the stance right to the ground. IT IS A KNOCK OUT PUNCH!!

Usually aimed at the Solar plexus, floating ribbs or the dan tien of enemy if possible.

=======================
The HK version of this punch is powerfull but requires a different level of commitment than the Western Boxing Jabb. The 2 are totally different animals.

Chinese Kung Fu is almost ALWAYS, attempting to link and send the best power the fighter can muster into every method...especially punches.

The very notion of a Non commital punch was just bad form or waste of time.

[PM]

hello "O",

none offence taken, actually the oposite. very nice analysis, than you!

of course GSP is not a Hung Kyun fighter, and his jab is not (always) exactly jin cheui , but - as there are many ways how to cook the jab (eg. power jab - GSP used that one as well), there are also many ways how to cook baat fan jin cheui. the jab and its role might be also very different in MMA and boxing - quite a few jab KOs in MMA, rigth? self defense might be again a bit another story again.

your description of the Hung Kyun jin cheui is perfect, but - just for one form of jin cheui. in application, we do our jin cheui in many different ways, eg. with the body bent and lowered head (shooting to the groin). nothing i have invented or incorporated - i have it from my sifu and my sibaak as well. traditional 4 line kyun kyut about baat fan fo jin cheui even talks about so called fu san, ie. bending the body. hitting the groin, no power needed - we usually rely on the rear power hand. we used it as well:

- to gwo kiu, cross the opponents bridge and hit to the face - and we have 3 different ways to do it

- slip to the side and hit underneath the opponents bridge

- set up the palm strike (yat kyun yat jeung, right, a Hung Kyun classic) - either high palm, middle/low jin cheui, or high jin cheui, middle palm strike

- fake (really light jin cheui) to set up the power strike

- set up lin waan jin cheui - fast chain punching with advancing zig zag steps, no power strikes, but fast as hell

- ...

this is imho key to the usage of our art - techniques should be ji yin, natural and spontaneous, not necessarily same as in the sets. again, not my original thought, but my sifu's. just watch his stances and shortened movements when he applies his stuff. he always says: chin bin maan fa - thousand changes, ten thousand variations

all the best and thnx again for the post

[vaulander]

Well, I kept looking for Yat Gee Chui, but I don't think GSP or whatshisname did any. And the opponent was more of a walking punching bag after a minute or so.
Jabs are good for 'heckling' the opponent, but I'd rather take 5 clean jabs to the face than a Yat Gee. Derrick and Scott wanted to see if these 'exaggerated' ping chui and yat gee chui were efficient, so they put on the armor I had, extra heavy tkd armor, and did ping chui/yat gee combos on each other. They only did it once, for some reason, hehe.

[Subitai]

Cool PM,

You'll not get any arguments from me when it comes to supporting and open mind and possible change. I mean, look at my signature!!!!

I only remained strictly adhearent to the ONE pic of Lam Tsai Wing photo that you showed because it was the only one. It was mostly a "Thought Bubble" for me if you get my meaning.

Like yourself, I am also traditionally trained but I don't mind variation...I embrace it if it's functional and works.


My opinion ok....
The HK arrow fist is perfect the way it is...you just have to have the right set up (Gun) to use it in VS a modern fighter who floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee. So yeah, as you said, for Self defence it is another story.


So I have a question for you? Are you saying that the jabb that GSP was doing was indicatve of a possible variation of Hung Kuen?

==========================

BTW, I would love to see a picture of your Body Bent Posture with Lowered head.

Ease on man,

"O"

[Daifong]

Of course he didn't throw it exactly like our Hung Kyun, my own comment mainly directed to the dropped stance and that vertical fist delivery...

However, with the hairstyle and that dignified expression, we found the resemblance to be somewhat more than quite remarkable!



Laffs,

Michael

[Asmo]

I cant even see the video... Somehting with not allowed to see it. Too bad...

[PM]

[PM]

well, terible mess in my tapes, but i have found this pic. fu san baat fan fo jin cheui - students of late Grandmaster Ho Laptin. we lean the head little bit more down and aim for the groin. obviously, this technique a) part of the combo b) used on taller opponents. the other hand can be at the waist, we usualyl kee our wu sau high to guard the upper gate

[Daifong]

...and he actually has a photo of it!

My, my, my...

[Subitai]

[PM]

everything else please se above

[PM]

oh, i was replying to your previous post, no problem to discuss things on a discussion forum bro!

your sifu on the picture is performing excellent example of fu san. sure seui long paau cheui is different, but this is tou pau cheui. same goes for jin cheui and its variations. our Hung Kyun is very rich as for the body movement.

[Subitai]

The pics are a validation of my deleted post. Bent over is not bad, but dipping the head would be.

So as you can see, he's bent over but his head and neck are STILL connected to the spine.

I don't think arrow fist would be as powerfull when you bend over too much.

My main point was that in Boxing they tuck the chin to the chest. That would not be good in Kung Fu.

"O"