Question for PM about the 12 Bridges

[ginosifu]

I found the Chinese characters of the 12 bridges. However trying to use online translators, it's hard to get a good translation. Tell me how close I am with these.

12 Bridges of Hung Kuen
Char English Mand Canto
1 穿 = Piercing Chuan Chyun
2 沉 = Sinking Chen Cham
3 分 = Dividing Fen Fan
4 架 = Supporting Jia Ga
5 摸 = Sensing / Feel Mo Mok
6 推 = Pushing Tui Teui
7 寻 = Seeking Xun Cham
8 磨 = Grinding Mo Mo
9 挂 = Suspending Gua Gwa
10 撞 = Bumping Zhuang Jong
11 锁 = Locking Suo So
12 劈 = Splitting Pi Pek

Can anyone tell how close this is?

ginosifu

[PM]

hello ginosifu,

i am sure other members can give you qualified answer as well, neveretheless, here are my 2 cents.

i have seen the list you have posted on some Taiwanese website, however, those 12 are other 12 than the usual dozen. here is the most common list:

sap yi kiu sau 十二橋手

gong 剛
yau 柔
bik 逼
jik 直
fan 分
ding 定
chyun 寸
tai 提
lau 留/流
wan 運
jai 制
ding 訂

as for your translation of the other 12, it is pretty accurate, good job. however according my experience, the single character is hard to translate, as it is usually part of longer expression. eg. number 4 is hard to translate (ward off; prop... ). number 9 i usually translate as "hang", 12 as "chop"

i do not know much about the list that you have posted, it makes certainly sense, but i dunno how is it related to our tsk and our 12 bridges. both lists have eg. fan (your number 3)... many southern systems, eg. non yip Man WCH have similar lists of key concepts

[ginosifu]

Thanks... Pavel

ginosifu

[PM]

my pleasure, any time. i hope other members will write more!

[Mig]

It looks that Ginosifu had the explanation of each bridge, here below a written Chinese text for reference:

一般講洪拳十二橋手是指十二訣，乃「剛、柔、逼、直、分、定、寸、提、流、運、制、訂」等十二橋手訣。而十二橋手法則為「穿、沉、分、架、摸、推、尋、磨、掛、撞、鎖、劈」等十二種橋手法。

HTH

Mig

[Daifong]

Mig,

I am familiar with that list, and at least one well-respected source of it...

The way I see it, the problem is, that we all love Hung Kyun, and there is always going to be something of interest for figuring out. This makes it really difficult to "throw anything away"...

Also, because the human animal (at aaaaall levels, ok) JUST LOVES to "establish something himself", and likewise "not be short of answers", lots of complicated and unnecessary elements get thrown into the mix, even by (and through) the most well-intended...

Now, Hung Kyun DOES actually have a couple of fail-safes in its favor, one of which is, "consider the source", the other one is, "rely upon your own experience and understanding". These are two of the strongest bastions against being mislead that exist in our arsenal...

While discovering such long lost lists, Kyun Kyut, etcetera can potentially be tremendous, let us not forget the caveat, "don't believe in everything you read", as in our zeal to establish bigger and better breakthroughs, we may have only paved the way for more BS...

Tread carefully with these ones guys, is all I can say!



Best,

Michael

[vtml]

Interesting Mig, thanks for sharing.

[Asmo]

Another secret spilled ...

[PM]

[Daifong]

Why the INTERNET, of course...

Just clip and paste, hit "search", and that exact same line is EVERYWHERE!

(originally, perhaps it from the Mo Jia Quan??)

[ginosifu]

I have translated the characters that Pm gave me.

sap yi kiu sau 十二橋手
Char English Mand Canto
1 - 剛 - Hard Gang Gong
2 - 柔 - Soft Rou Yau
3 - 逼 - Forceful Bi Bik
4 - 直 - Straight Zhi Jik
5 - 分 - Dividing Fen Fan
6 - 定 - Determing Ding Ding
7 -寸 - Inch Cun Chyun
8 - 提 - Lifting Ti Tai
9 -留/流 - Stopping / Flowing Liu Lau
10 - 運 - Transporting Yun Wan
11 - 制 - Controlling Zhi Jai
12 - 訂 - Finishing Deng Ding

What is the difference? Why is Taiwanese set of 12 different than the set from PM. I am assume that PM's they came from Lam Jo (Cantonese). Why is taiwan have a different set?

ginosifu

[PM]

ginosifu: no no, not from Lam Jou sigung, but from Lam Saiwing jung si (Wong Feihung/Lam Fuksing/Tit Kiu Saam)

[ginosifu]

Pavel,
I just meant they came thru Lam Jo...
Wong Fei Hung
|
Lam Tsai Wing
|
Lam Jo

I 'm just curious why there different sets of bridges? Different interpretations of the movements? Different commuities evolved into theories?

ginosifu

[PM]

what i meant - not only trough my sigung, grandmaster Lam Jou, but other students of Lam Saiwing (eg. Jyu Yujai, Wu Lapfung) or Wong Feihung (Mok Gwailaan - Lei Chanwo) as well

well, i know a bit about standard 12, as for this list, i sincerelly do not know, altough the concepts are pretty straightforward, common keywords in Southern gungfu

[Frank Bolte]

talked to my sihing in HK about it and he said following:

Frank, I've never heard that before, buy as per the meaning of Chinese character, the difference is 1st 12 bridges is theory, and the 2nd is real application. 1st one called 十二橋手, and the 2nd one called 十二橋手法。