Sword set

[santaranks]

I DON'T believe one of the previous statements, that Lum Jo brought the Pek Kwa Daan Do into Hung Gar.

I am a useless student from Chan Hon Chung's lineage and Chan si-gung, Lam Sai Wing's FINAL disciple, also learnt this broadsword form from HIS sifu. Chan Hon Chung was NEVER a student of Lum Jo, so HOW do you explain that our lineage has the exact same broadsword form??? !!!

Look at 36th Chambers of Shaolin and you will see Lau Kar Fei performing their version of the same form. Here also, Lau Jaam was a disciple of Lam Sai Wing, BEFORE Lam si-taai-gung came to HK. Lau Jaam was NEVER a student of Lum Jo, so HOW do you explain that, the Lau family have the exact same broadsword form???!!!

I have seen students of Chiu Chi Ling ALSO performing this form. Chiu si-fu's father Chiu Kao was a disciple of Lam Sai Wing BEFORE he came to HK. Chiu Kao was NEVER a student of Lum Jo, so HOW do you explain that, the Chiu family have the exact same form???!!!

I have been taught this form by my teacher Jim Uglow, and he has NEVER made any mention of this broadsword form coming from Lum Jo.

We had a similar situation towards the end of the 90's-early-2000's, where people started to claim a majority of the Hung system's forms CAME from Lum Jo....this ceased when a joint declaration from ALL the OTHER FAMILY LINEAGES DISPUTED these claims.

The other family lineages STILL DISPUTE these claims, so lets NOT go down THAT route AGAIN!!!

[tripleHHH]

Interesting stuff.

Do you happen to have a video of your version Santaranks? Be cool to see the variation other lineages offer.

Good performance here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8HVVuJ_s6k

Variation here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Sd_6PCB4M

Variation here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK9rdgU1cw8

Variation here too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPyt8t3J ... sults_main

[santaranks]

We shot a short "film" at our kwoon and there is a short burst of the Daan Do form in there at 3mins38seconds by one of my Kung Fu brothers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn_aoKRQdXo

[shuen]

Please do not be too political in this forum. Please do not shout that much santaranks in one post.

I do think Pek Kwa Daan Do came at least from LSW, or even before, but it is an oppinion. i was not there. But i have learned it, and in our school we do not learn forms which was made after LSW, just the Chin Sam Chueng form Chiu Kao (a changed version of Chin Chueng).

Just a little correction: Chiu Kao lerned from Wong Sai Wing before he (Chiu Kao) came to HK, not LSW. (And to be clear i´m from Chiu leanage.)

[tripleHHH]

Pardon Shuen. I didnt mean this to get political.

[santaranks]

I dont think my disputing someone's statements, when I consider them insulting or misleading to be political at all.

A political statement would be someone trying to tell everyone on a forum that, no matter what line they come from, if their lineage has a certain form then it has to come from one certain source....someone not even on most families lineage chart. Certainly I havent seen Lum Jo mentioned on our family chart...

As for shouting...this happened before, as I said at the end of my first reply...and the only thing that stopped it escalating to physical conflict (challenges were sent to certain people in HK, but refused??) was different Hung Gar lineages standing up and shouting down the lies...and that stopped all the misleading information being aired, I dont want it starting again...hence my tone.

As for the origins of that broadsword form...I wouldnt be surprised if Wong Fei Hung was able to learn it, as he did Tit Sin Kuen, from one of his father's friends....but as I wasnt there...who knows??? but as it is so prolific throughout the different branches, I do not believe it came from Lum Jo.

Thank you for the info about Chiu Kao original Hung Gar teacher, my teacher knew him very well and visited him many times in HK....I have total respect for his memory.

[tripleHHH]

I did read Santaranks post as a little defensive. Be cool and be respectable. I was just wondering where certain forms were introduced in what lineage. Its interesting to see the variations of flavors of the same form. It basically is the same form with other ideas added and some taken out.

Did I see Tiger/Crane fighting set in that clip? Odd.

[PM]

both Wong Feihung's and Lam Saiwing's curriculum is very well documented - ask eg. Lei Chanwo sifu, student of Mok Gwailaan for Wong Feihung's, or read the old series of articles, written by Jyu Yujaai (student of Lam Saiwing), published in 1930's. Lam Saiwing was famous for his Commander's Sabre Set (Daan Ji Fai Dou), and the history how it was incorporated into his curriculum is very well documented in the old written sources (Chinese of course, and yes, it has been translated in English).

Pek Gwa Daan Dou is originally Northern gungfu sabre set, and comes from Daai Sing Pek Gwa of Gang Dakhoi sifu, very well known master who has taught for Lam Saiwing's Southern Chinese Martial Arts Physical Culture Association (Naam Mou Taai Yuk Wui). that is where my sigung has learned the set, as he and Gang Dakhoi were sworn brothers (Gang sifu has eg. taken care of young Lam Chun Fai when my sigung hed to hide from Japanese in China). i have many pictures of Lam Jou and Gang Dakhoi together.

who else learned the weapon (obviously very popular) and from whom (eg. Lau Jaam, Jiu Gaau, Chan Honjung...), i do not know, the only thing i know for sure is that Lam Saiwing has never practiced or taught this set. Ask the Daai Sing Pek Gwa guys of Gang Dakhoi's lineage. Y.C. Wong sifu's sabre set is a bit different, because he also studied with Gang Dakhoi sifu.

i personaly do not like the Pek Gwa sabre set much, and practice and teach the old Commander's Sabre Set (Daan Ji Fai Dou) instead - structure very similar to all other old Hung kyun sets - logical structure to 4 directions, repetion of the movement and combos, similar sectiosn to Eight Diagram Long Pole, trident, double knives, very useful and combat ready, bto for fencing and war like type of fighting. small part of the set is in this old vid of mine, starting at 1:01



discusss as gentlemen, ok!

[santaranks]

Do not think I am being political....or trying to start Flame Wars (quite the opposite). As for the tone I have used being "defensive??" all I did was ask questions of people posting what I believe is misleading information. if asking questions or disputing something is also frowned upon, then this forum serves NO purpose whatsoever.

PM are you suggesting in your above reply that Lau Jaam, Chiu Kao and my own si-gung Chan Hon Chung-if they all know the aforementioned broadsword form- must have learned it from Lum Jo. Then I must dispute this claim.

We have been here before when some western students of the Lum family, were given false information-including a list of Lum Jo's students, with Chan si-gung, Chiu Kao and his wife Siu Ying names upon it (it was published in Inside Kung Fu with these names circled). A list we know was produced in the 1950's, but conveniently not shown publicly, until the last male student of Lam si-taai-gung (other than Lum Jo of course), Alex Leung Yu Chung, had just passed away.....why did they wait until after that, I wonder??

They also produced claims that Ng Long Baht Jwa Gwun was introduced to Hung Kuen by Lum Jo (despite the contrary proof that Tang Fung's branch have this pole form). Also that Lum Jo "created" the Tiger/Crane two man form-again something we dispute then...and still do.

There was a statement issued, in respsonce, by all the concerned familys- Hon Chung Tong Hok Wui, Chiu family, Lau family and Tang Fong branches too-denouncing these falsehoods. Tomorrow I will be bringing these claims surrounding the broadsword form to the senior western representative of the Hon Chung Tong Hok Wui, hopefully he will give me the okay to continue disputing these claims, and will also contact the various families involved.

[PM]

[PM]

Guest post by my good friend Frank Bolte sifu - translation of an old text, written by Jyu Yujai, student of Lam Saiwing:

http://naamkyun.com/2011/12/how-lam-sai ... der-sword/

enjoy!

[Daifong]

Where did Pek Gwa Sword come from? Why, from Pek Gwa, of course. Who taught Pek Gwa in Hong Kong in the period before the second world war? Grandmaster Ken Tak Hoi. Where was this primarily taught to Hung Kyun students? Naam Mou Taai Yeuk Wui, alright? Any Hung Kyun instructor who doesn't have information regarding from when or by whom something was adapted by his branch, should have the good grace to simply state for the record:
"I don't know!"



Frankly, I would love to hear accounts of just who learned from Ken Tak Hoi and how (Lau Jaam, Chan Hon Chung, Chiu Kau, et al), so anyone who can't contribute positively here, please bag it. You already know right who you are!



Best,

Michael Goodwin
http://www.sfhunggar.com

[Fan Kwoen]

[tripleHHH]

Great article on the Commander Sword. Thanks for sharing. Thats the stuff I like to read and learn about. Cool looking form too, thanks for the article and video.

[santaranks]

It's strange that someone would say, "where does Pek Kwa come from...Pek Kwa of course" as this means nothing.

In 2002 Mark Houghton si-fu came to our old school, his 2nd visit of that year, and taught us a broadsword form from his Malaysian Hung Gar lineage, from his original si-fu Ho Kam Wai.

This Malaysian lineage doesnt have Luk Ah Choy, Wong Fei Hung or Lam Sai Wing in it's family tree as it's direct from Hung si-jo himself. The name of the broadsword form Mark taught us, was also Pek Kwa Daan Do, and has nothing in common with the broadsword form under discussion....and is older than Taai Sing Pek Kwa Moon as it comes from the time of Hung si-jo.

The word Pek just means cutting, does the hand technique Pek Chui have something to do with Taai Sing Pek Kwa Moon because of the word Pek???

As for the above statement that there was no claim regarding Ng Long Baht Gwa Gwun-we have on the wall in our kwoon the joint declaration in response to the article in Inside Kung Fu. It definitely repudiates Hamby's sratements regarding the provenance of this pole form, where he claimed Lum Jo. introduced the form into the system??

As for bagging it...I'll speak my mind okay...I dont like bullies (real or cyber ones) trying to tell me what to do. If freedom of speech is allowed on this forum (I am beginning to think not) as long as I am not throwing insults or challenges around, I will not bag it chum.