Hung Ga Monkey

[Daifong]

So, is this the "Gwan Ngoi Dei Tong similar to Pek Gwa" that you are talking about, then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LqgHTmiX_Y


This is what Chan Kai Leung has to say about it:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazin ... rticle=237

[researcher]

[Daifong]

*Daifong, you have many question marks, I hope Im not misreading your intention when I see those because Im only here for a friendly exchange of knowledge

We’re cool researcher, and may I say welcome to this board. Please know that I’m not interested in representing Pek Gwa lineage or history in any way, shape, or form. My Si Gung was tight with Gan Dak Hoi. According to him, they exchanged many concepts, and several sets. Gan Dak Hoi, for example, ‘picked up’ the Gung Ji, Fu Hok and Tit Sin Kyun, ok. Little-known fact, period…

As everybody already knows, I’ve spent many long hours practicing Gung Fu and relaxing with my Si Gung, listening to his views about the Mo lam, the systematic approaches, and the personalities that comprise it…

If I ever discuss something about Gung Fu history, it’s probably because I noticed something, discussed it with my Si Gung, looked at it again, discussed it with my Si Gung again, or other individuals whose subjective criteria are likewise notable, then continued on with my own research/ development, with those criteria in mind…

Today, Lam Family Hung Ga Kyun, historically and stylistically complex enough in it’s own right, well, let’s just say that it’s a full-time job, and I’m not trying to do it again in some other style, ESPECIALLY Dai Sing Pek Gwa Mun, 120-plus sets, hahaha!

That being said, I can occasionally stand corrected, fair enough?

*I learned from 2 of those 3 teachers you posted the links of, and yes I do believe them to be reputable. The 3rd one I cant say as that doesnt look related to the Drunken Monkey (or the other monkeys) of Chan Sau Chung... at not the one that I learned. Do you have any information on him?

To have learned from even one of those teachers is, IMHO, respectable. Therefore, respects!

I don’t know who that third guy is, he claims Tai Shing Pek Kwar. Of all the Monkeys, only “Lost Monkey” is being shown, and only Chan Sau Chung has credibly discussed the other four “ways”. Si Gung’s Monkey might as well be called the “Lost Monkey”, because other than Lee Yat Ming students, nobody seems to be able to find it any more!

*I think I already answered that when I said: Dei Tong Mun which was Kau Sei's original system of ground boxing, and Daai Sing Mun which was Kau Sei's original creation of 5 Monkey Fist. Dei Tong Mun is also called "Gwan Ngoi Dei Tong Mun" after where its from.

*You can check that with any of the TSPK people, or just look in the book that we published... a couple decades ago. It tells this history basically as I just said it, and the book has Chan Sau Chung and Man Wing Gai on the cover. Man Wing Gai for those who dont know is the current "keeper of the style" of TSPK!

Anyway, Dei Tong is floor-fighting, period. If a floor fighting system picked up a couple of sets from a stand-up system, or a stand-up system similarly incorporates some Dei Tong in suitable measure, more power to them. I wouldn’t get too wrapped up in titles or semantics though…

Gwaan Ngoi, it’s an interesting piece of information, but Dei Tong as a conceptual approach is certainly not invented by Kau Sze or his immediate lineage. Just take a look at Indonesian Harimau, is my only point with you on the matter then, ok?

*This is a copy of a form from Dei Tong Mun called "Mo Chung Tuet Kau", one of the forms of the Dei Tong Mun system. Originally this was created by Gan Dak Hoi based primarily from the Dei Tong that he learned from Kau Sei. The form could stand alone as a style-less entity but we always considered it as part of the Dei Tong Mun portion... even though it wasnt an original. When I learned it I was told that it belonged to Dei Tong Mun. Maybe "copy" as I said above isnt the right word, the form shown in that clip is either highly modified or a recreation of the original.

*Thanks for the link of Chan Kai Leung's article, I was actually going to post it for you!

*As contemporary Wushu has also adopted this form and made it known within their circle (and published a book too) the source of that is relevant. Gan Dak Hoi performed this in public long ago, perhaps when he was teaching at Jing Wu but not sure, and at that time were many onlookers, among which was a Wushu coach who couldnt remember the form but did learn the concept and recreate a new "wushu" form which is speculated to have inspired others to recreate for themselves from the same concept.

Very cool. Even though it’s played by a Tai Gik Tong Long student, it’s obviously a set that comes from Gan Dak Hoi. It has most of the same elements and flavor as his own Pek Gwa. I say this from “experience”, haha…

Anyway, Tai Gik Tong Long Kyun has my high regard. Along with Seven Star, really hold the Northern Mantis standard. They probably like the set for the same reason that Wushu does, because it represents the Chinese history in such a spirited manner…

However, unlike modern Wushu, Tai Gik Tong Long Kyun standards can actually fully appreciate and bring to life the original fighting concepts of such a set…

*Daifong, it seems you have done your research on this matter! Which brings me to wonder, are you checking your knowledge... or are you checking mine (rhetorical). Anyway, if I missed or mistook anything please let me know!

Ok, you asked where it pertains to LGHK, where I am happy to be of help. Other than that, as I assure you, it’s really of small importance…

Of course, I’m sure that I can always learn a thing or two from an actual, bona-fide “researcher”, lol!

*But yes you are right. In TSPK as Chan Sau Chung taught he did lay down a rather logical hierarchy. It started with the 4 Pek Gwa hand forms, then miscellaneous forms from various systems, then the Dei Tong forms, and lastly was Monkey. As Chan Sau Chung had 3 kung fu teachers in his life he learned very many forms, and his particular TSPK system is vast (said to have 128 hand and weapon forms)... the gap between Pek Gwa and Monkey in his curriculum is huge!

Yes, and you can do the math. If you know 120 forms, in order to run through all of them, it’s going to take you 4 hours straight, no breaks, and nothing played twice…

That, only if you can learn a new set every two months for twenty years!

I have all the respect in the world for Chan Sau Chung and his son, Kai Leung. To me, he will always be the one and only “Monkey King”. Also, when I see the way Chau Keung plays his weapons, I feel that I can see what my Si Gung respects about the system…

I also am relieved to hear for TSPK that they have a proper Jung Mun in Man Wing Gai!



Best,

Michael

[researcher]

Daifung,

Im new to this forum and dont know anyone here yet, so good to learn about you mate!

I feel one way to thoroughly explore your style is by also exploring the styles and people its been in contact with, which often gives information that wouldnt be found otherwise. So I really am here doing research and not interested about sharing opinions generally... but sometimes.

Thats why I was asking about Lum Jo and Monkey connection, as within TSPK there are far too many things that were untold (silenced is what Ive heard), and often this is true with other styles. So I thank you for sharing that info you had with me!

[researcher]

Ive studied Daai Sing Pek Gwa for a very long time, but my focus has always been on Monkey Fist, which Ive trained and researched intensively. Such a rare style, it was protected almost to the point of its own extinction. Pek Gwa and the other components of the system are actually alive all over and found its way into other schools with other practitioners. But Monkey Fist... there are so few people in the world who know the legitimate Monkey Fist of Daai Sing Mun.

Daifong, its interesting that youve heard many stories from Lum Jo, you are fortunate to have directly heard a voice from that generation. I wonder what he told you about Gan Dak Hoi... is there anything you can share that he told you?

[Daifong]

Ok, how about this...

My Si Gung has mentioned upon occasion that the Daai Sing Pek Gwa Mun system, properly trained, is possessed of notable internal achievement...

Therefore, it would seem to follow that anyone attempting to master the system by simply collecting its forms would only be fooling himself with it then, ok?



Best,

Michael

[researcher]

Yes, this is what I was told when I learned TSPK too. We do certain "gung" exercises, and there are other components of the system that would be considered internal. Gan Dak Hoi also learned Chen Taiji (of which he passed on his very own version of), Bagua (also passed on his own version), and Xingyi, so it would be sound to say that he did have internal knowledge. The Drunken Monkey is explained as having the most internal content of the 5 monkeys and has many fajing strikes, but hard to elaborate on that.

The requirements of Monkey are unique and dont cooperate with internal mechanics or theory very well... but thats fine as the goal and requirements are different.

[Daifong]

Ok then Researcher, I'm glad I didn't throw you off just now (or maybe claim "Yin Yoga" )...

I'm not sure about Northern China, but I seem to remember being told by Pek Gwa players from other schools that in the North, Pek Gwa is standardly paired with Bat Gik Kyun/ "Eight Polarity Boxing", as an optimal balance...

Then, I'm sure there are those players of each who feel that their own respective system stands perfectly well on its own distinctive merit...

Another thing that has been said by such Northern Pek Gwa "purists", is that the system established by Gan Dak Hoi, to them, seemed more like Choy Lay Fut!

I'm not sure exactly which internal work makes the TSPK tick, but it stands to reason that Chan Ga Taai Gik Kyun could be included, because my Si Gung (although not directly referencing Gan Dak Hoi) did mention that, "Chan Ga Taai Gik Kyun is comprised of a mechanism which promotes internal function, similar in its effect to the Tit Sin Kyun"...

Because I know my Si Gung to only speak in that fashion upon such matters as to which he has had direct personal involvement, it stands to reason that somebody (at a certain point in time which few, if any, today remember), shared their qualified criteria and standards with my Si Gung regarding the Chan Ga Taai Gik Kyun...

Lam Cho himself has stated to have never felt a personal need to incorporate any Taai Gik Kyun in his own personal practice or teaching, and has pointed out on various occasions that the system itself does not particularly add dimension to his own system of Hung Ga Kyun (the inference I am taking here is, as it pertains only the depth of the individual's skill in the committed practice of his own respective art)...

That being said, several of his best students are historically and currently known for their Taai Gik study and practice...

Not so well known, is that a notably talented student of my Si Gung, the GM Dung Gok Wah of Boston, practiced and taught a version of the Chan Ga Taai Gik Kyun to certain students. I'm not sure where he originally learned it, but the respect is obviously there...

Ok, so Researcher, what we all want to know, how can somebody chop wood with his bare hands, like that monk in the Pek Gwa story?

I don't recall us hearing of any Taai Gik or Baat Gik there!



Best,

Michael

[Chunyat]

Lam Cho Sigung at the right, next to grand master Ken Tak Hoi





Linked from:
http://www.tspk.org.hk

[researcher]

Daifong: There are 3 systems of Pek Gwa that I know of:

1.Pek Gwa Keun (of TSPK) - said to be of shaolin origin, but before Gan's father the origins are unclear... though it had a different name before
2.Pek Gwa Jeung (pigua zhang) - of wutang from taiwan but of hebei origin
3.Pek Gwa Jeung (pigua zhang) - a derived faction of Tongbei

1 looks like simple northern shaolin with some but few circular movements. 2 is the one that is found with Baji (baat gik) and similar but even more circular movements, and some internal components. 3 is primarily circular and known as a strictly internal style. All northern styles and comparative, but big differences too.


I dont know the pek gwa story of a monk chopping wood with his bare hand. I might be able to do it, but I dont know how he came about to do it.

Chunyat: thanks for the picture, that must be in the 50's!

[Daifong]

Actually, what the legend seemed to describe was that the monk was fully splitting rounds with his own bare hands, so please don't attempt any stunt and potentially injure yourself, especially on our account!

Anyway, the only "Monkey" we ever see is designed for issuing (abrupt movement), not for gathering (contained movement), thus what you say so far makes sense. Still, for one who understands generational dynamics, practically any well-engineered set can be used for "internal work"...

What would seemingly not make sense would be that a highly skilled individual require an overly broad assortment of forms to complete his internal foundation. IMHO, one good form should be sufficient...

Ok, here's a random youtube sampler, that we may clarify some frame of reference:

Starting at 3:54, this clip has footage of a 'very different' Pek Gwa I, II, and III, sort of what I myself would characterize as 'Wushu/ Wutang inspired':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXMkx2lR ... re=related

Alternately, Chow Keung's approach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPfYApv7 ... re=related

Just take a look at the TSPK weapons rack...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wrye_fIU ... re=related

Supposedly when GM Chan Sau Chung was teaching at #36 Shantung Street, Mongkok, he had a list of all his sets, with prices, just like a restaurant menu. A selection like that could definitely make somebody feel like a kid in a candy shoppe!

And this one was just funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4FxSAl3 ... re=related

Do you recognize his form?

Here also is a sample of Chan Ga Taai Gik Kyun movement, I believe it's more or less the standard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJuudvIMZs0

I'm sure anything that can be said about the systemic incorporation of the Chan Ga Taai Gik Kyun into the TSPK system would be quite illuminating for the many practitioners today who enjoy (and thus try to maintain a balance between) Taai Gik and another system!

Finally, did you ever get a chance to learn the Hei Gung Kau/ "Breathwork Ball", and how it rolls around and around on the table?

So interesting, la!



Best,

Michael

[Yogicmotion]

ROTFLOL! Yin Yoga! Nice one Mike!

[researcher]

[Daifong]

“Monkey trains the practitioner to be light and agile, so reflex actions like quick jerking motions are very important. Yes it could be smoothed out and changed so that it flows smooth like taiji... but even if there were benefits to that it would loose the spirit of Monkey!”

Sure, well, as I’m sure that Kau Sze got power somehow, so likewise Gan Dak Hoi had the Chan Ga Taai Gik Kyun (Lou Ga/ “Old Frame”), it would seemingly fill the bill…

“…But, Gan Dak Hoi was known as a forms collector and picked up anything that caught his eye. Even though he taught over 50 forms (closer to 100 actually) still he never finished passing his stuff on as he got ill later in life. His successor Chan Sau Chung even didnt finish learning that mass amount of forms that Gan had, but none the less has 2 other teachers who even fed him more forms, which he says to be 128 in total!”

“I believe its fine to learn alot of forms and experience alot of teachers, but reduce to the bare minimum once your "testing things out" stage is over. These 2 masters though kept it all! Their students continue that same practice too... but for myself I only kept what I felt was necessary for development and left the rest far behind me.”

Well, IMO you are the wiser, or at least the more realistic. The same thing happened to Ying Jow Pai. First there was the Ngok Fei 108. Perfectly fine as a system since the 12th Century AD (?), more or less. Then, somebody mixed it with Faan Tzi Mun. Ok then, more dynamic range…

THEN it was the 10 Jing Mo compulsories…

May we say, “Obsessive-Compulsive Collector’s Syndrome”?!

It’s no wonder brand new Ying Jow Sifu are so few and far between!

The same thing goes for Chut Sing Tong Long (150 forms after Lo Gwan Yuk)…

Wing Chun Pai has many dozens of forms, but HK students can thank Yip Man, “finishing” students with only the most essential foundational requirements…

Ten sets could last someone a lifetime, if one practices the right sets!

From what I have seen, to learn Monkey, you can learn all of the floorwork necessary by the time you are a young teenager, just like with gymnastics. Then, waiting for a certain level of physical maturity before starting Hei Gung and heavy conditioning, emotional/psychological maturity, if starting at 8 years of age, then finish by 18. Ten years, just like any serious system, no more, no less!

Ok, learn a Pek Gwa longarm set, so the Monkey doesn’t (potentially) crouch your posture…

(Although I do notice that both Chan Sau Chung and Chow Keung keep straight-back posture during execution of the "Lost" Monkey form)

With all due respect, did I miss anything here, or is it necessary for a student to be (seemingly) held back until he’s 28 (after 20 years of Pek Gwa etc forms) if you’re actually interested in trying to teach him Monkey system?!

“Another TSPK practitioner actually. He was just playing around but did a piece of the opening of one of the monkeys... but I dont know what the point of that was.”

I think the point was that the foreign tourist crowd were like, “Monkey See, Monkey Do”, lol…

Now, for those of us who have never seen it (like myself), perhaps you might tell us which one it actually was (a part of)?

(Ok, we’ve seen “Lost” already, it wasn’t “Drunk”, so, “Tall”, “Stone” or “Wood” then, right?)

Maybe if somebody who knows Lam Jo’s particular Monkey is reading this, if it is the same, you’ll have your answer

“…Gan Dak Hoi's own personal version of Chen Taiji performed by Chow Keung!”

That…looks…really…familiar!

I think that clip you just posted will answer a variety of questions for the observant individual, particularly with regard to schools which practice Taai Gik Kyun, along with certain fusion arts arising from the Southern Chinese Martial Art Association (1950’s)...

…Score!

“I did (learn the Hei Gung Kau) yes, the ball is not only rolled on the table but also struck to send to the partner on the other side of the table!”

http://www.tspk.org.hk/mainpage_teach.htm

Ok, now I am impressed!!

Never mind all the weapons, I just want to learn the Ball!!!



Best,

Michael

[Daifong]