No forms

[Asmo]

Hey Forum

As you guys know I started with a group last November. So far so good, the core of the group is still in tact and some train on a daily basis and make fast progress.
I have also two of them who are greatly enjoying the class but who have a hard time learning the form (muifa). They simply cant remember the moves no matter how hard they try. They also have little time to practice at home so that does not help either.
Yet they enjoy class and they make great progress in other area's. Motorics, overal condition, mental...
I try to cater every individual on their possibilities and what they are ready for, and I just thought it would be best for them to drop the whole form thing. It takes a lot of energy from them, and form me also having to explain the same thing each class. It also takes relatively a lot of time thats subtracted from the time for other students.

I have a series of standard attack & defensive drills, meant to give a good base to react in different self defense situations. I practice them in three ways: stylistic where they practice them individualistic with proper stances and all, on pads in fighting style and finally one on one.

So i just thought, why not drop the form, and just teach them these drills? They will have the benefit of forms by practicing proper stances and techniques but without the hassle of remembering what move comes next. Also by repeating you get the benefit of working on overall condition as you do with forms. And they work on self defense.

What do you guys think? How do you cope with such students? I would hate to loose them because they obviously benefit from the training, which is more important for me then they being top hung kuen students who will learn the whole curriculum.

[PM]

i have taught mui fa kyun at the university - one semester, 13 lessons, each lesson 1,5 hour, 1 time per week. everybody can learn it, especially if there is no rush as i had. it does not matter if one spends one week, one month or three months a year on one of the section (of five of mui fa kyun). in worst case scenario a student can learn it in 1 and 1/4 year (15 months, each sections 3 months). there will be much more difficult obstacles in their Hung Kyun training than learning such a short and simple set as mui fa kyun.

my personal opinion is that Hung kyun might be partially taught without any sets, especiall using drills like those from mui fa kyun. but how about sets like gjffk, fhsyk, syk, tsk? their choreography, structure, aim and benefit is different from sets like mui fa kyun (especially the first halves of the sets like gjffk, fhsyk, syk). can Chen taijiquan be taught without Lao jia yi lu? i am not sure. can CLF be taught without any sets? yeah, i think no prob, 10 seeds and make your own combos. in this case, i would definitely follow the masters of old and their wisdom and experience. advanced student who knows the sets of course does not need them as much any more and spends much more time on lin gung/saan sau/saan da (well, tsk is the exception)

my school - my castle, my conditions, my rules. no worries of loosing a student, especially a beginner. if i had to adapt my teaching to all the beginners i would not be doing anything else - some do not like the foundational conditioning and strengthening, so do not like the drills, some the pad work, some sets, some the sparring drills etc. etc. if somebody's weak point is to remember a sequence of movements (or any other aspects of the art), well, he has to train harder, train smarter, not only at the lesson, but also at home, otherwise he is wasting his and mine time. you have to teach them smarter as well, ie. new stuff right in the beginning of the lesson, not when the student is tired. individual training plan? sure, for the intermediate/advanced students. as my gungfu friend says: guys studying under me less than 3 years are not my students, just visitors.

just couple of thoughts Asmo, hope it helps. i have opened my school 8 ears ago, i sincerely believe that i am a much better teacher now, and i also sincerely hope that 8 years later i will be teaching much better than i am now. all the best in your training and teaching!

[Asmo]

[ginosifu]

[PM]

what i suggest is adopt some periodisation model. a student cannot get better at many things simultaneously. in my school, we usually follow this model:

- warm up, 8 stances, 10 minutes of jaat ma in the beginning of every session
- 10 minutes of da saam sing e in the end of every session, plus 5 minutes of easy stretching

- the core programme varies: 2 weeks of sets (drills from the sets, complete sets) and 2-man drills (aplication drills, sparring drills, free sparring), next 2 weeks drills (pads, heavy bag, kicking shields, solo... ) and sparring sets (drills from sparring sets, complete sets)
. three or four weeks cycle might be even better, but for a regular guy this is already enough

- the conditioning and strengthening also varies

more advanced students (especially our saan da team) have their own special training, targeting various types of power and skills. fridays we have sparring only - 3 minutes rounds, one minute rest, 2 hours non stop

best

PS: just editing a short video from our LGHK camp, you will love it guys, i promise

[Frank Bolte]

In my training forms are not the first priority BUT they have their place...
What would be possible in my teaching ; just to teach only one form and it has to be one of the pillar sets..but that would be exclusive for people who cant train much..

Anyway Jeroen,you teach now how long 6 months? I would not write the forms off,even if its only a few of your students..there should be never rush..if it takes them 2 years to learn mui fah so be it...

Other than that talk to the guys and tell em just to focus on one form ,ggffk for example,even if it takes 3 years.

[Xiaobian]

Input from a student:

Personally, I find forms useful for one reason only: solo practice. If I have one form, I can break it up into parts and drill them. Without a form, I may forget some drills, or miss others, etc., etc. I have never really learned gongfu together with classmates. It has been one-on-one with my master. So for me, the form is rather convenient. When I come across another person to practice with, we never ever do forms--just drills (parts of forms) on each other.

IMHO forms practice in groups is unnecessary and a waste of time for martial arts. Maybe it's convenient to teach everyone at once instead of one-on-one, but if they do not practice on their own, and always just come to class, the form doesn't accomplish anything. If you want to train a good choreographed performance for tournament, that is different of course.

[Daifong]

Hello Asmo,

It's ironic that somebody would find forms difficult, because a form is basically a convenience. It allows us to collect, integrate, refine, retain, and eventually relate a system of concepts (in most if not all of their variations), just like a map or a file index...

That being said, I have experienced about 1 in 100 people who try, but try as they might, they just can't learn a form at a rate that is based on the other 99 people represented...

I do feel that your instincts are correct, to de-emphasize "the ability to produce a form", over "proper skill development", and a good, fun, and healthy overall experience...

IMO 99 percent of individuals are just skimming along with all of those forms anyway, so adjusting class to the pace of the guy who just can't continue until he "gets" something, well, if you don't make that single individual feel too useless initially, he may just turn out to be one of your most promising students!



Best,

Michael

[Asmo]

[ironpalm]

Hi Asmo,

Sorry to be late to the "party" on this thread...

I read this thread and thought about it for quite a while. I think forms are important but that's me. If someone can't learn the forms, especially after a lot of work from you to help them, I'm wondering if they have some type of learning disorder? I'm friends with an educational consultant and our discussions about her work astound me. Basically everyone has their strengths and weaknesses when learning/comprehending something. One person could be strong visually, yet weak in auditory/verbal. This type of person needs to see you do it and cannot process your verbal directions that well. Another person can be totally opposite. Some people will see you do a form and process the whole thing backwards. Some people will remember the form one day only to totally forget it the next day. There are many different learning disabilities as I've found out.

So assuming this couple is not lazy and really trying to learn, would they have some kind of learning disorder that hinders them from learning the form? Seems like everyone learns differently and it's a challenge to teach everyone equally well.

[Asmo]

IP, nonetheless much appreciated

I think its a combination of things. They're both middle aged, never did soemthing similar so not used to learn moves, no practice at home, etc. I dont think its a real disability disorder or anything. It just goes slooooooowly and they get overwhelmed by the material easily (even after 9 months basic stuff is still a problem).

They are able to learn drills, yesterday evening we finished a second drill consisting of 3-4 moves so they are able to learn such moves eventually. Its far from perfect but its enjoyed by all, hehe.

I will stick with them to the drills for now. That's something they are able to do and enjoy (and me too), and once they can perform those properly I will move on to have another try at forms. Frank's idea to work on one pillar I really like. GGFFK seems the way to go there... But that will be some time from now

Thanks for your input!

[TOET]

i try to tell new people to not get overwhelmed with the giant mountain of material to learn, instead think of every lesson every bit of knowledge they collect as a pebble they put on their pile. If they don't focus on the mountain soon their pile is quite large. Also convincing them that their path does not have to look like anybody else's can be a challenge...
Finally I've been working with someone on plum flower for almost two years, hes not the sharpest but keeps plugging away, perseverance is a virtue.

[TenTigers]

[Asmo]

[Daifong]

Asmo,

I've noticed that having a couple of any age on the training floor can be a separate dynamic altogether...

I had a young couple, in their twenties, the female student already had remarkable flexibility and body discipline through previous ballet and gymnastic experience. Her guy, on the other hand, had simply ruggedness, enthusiasm, and a normal level of flexibility and physical coordination...

To make a long story short, he couldn't understand and appreciate how she just seemed to get things in almost every area, which he was struggling with. They would argue about it at home, which eventually led to him coming less and less, which didn't help improve things for him much, ok...

Another couple, the fellow was atheletic back in college, and his lady had a more "cerebral" background. He never missed an opportunity to rag on her with others listening, and otherwise make her feel like it was just impossible...

If one is competitive with the other, or somebody overly critical, it can really put an extra spin on things which goes nowhere, fast. Or, if they are given to showing off for each other. Or, emotional spinoff from back home. Not only can they do themselves out of a potentially wonderful experience, it can sour the workout for the rest of your students...

One of my patented talks on the matter starts something like this:

"Y'know, I have a martial arts associate who refuses to even take on a couple to be his students..."



Best,

Michael