All right, I was wondering the other day what is the correct way to throw a punch ping choy. I found that if I always start in horse stance (seipingma) I will use my waist first and simultaneously ping choy. As far as I remember if I punch my arm is not extended but at least 45 degree as I reverse the hitting area. Any input on this or advise?
Thanks,
Mig
ping choy
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Re: ping choy
by Subitai » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:15 am
Last edited by Subitai on Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ping choy
by Subitai » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:58 am
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by Subitai » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:30 pm
Mig Absolutely,
When you're young and strong, you think you're invincible and will last forever. After I hit my 30's (and now 40) I noticed it took much longer to heal from injuries. Things don't feel pain free anymore like when I was younger.
People should emulate smarter healthier training like the great Hung Style Masters. Lam Jo, Chiu Kao
you wrote: The question is about the forearms and arms? extended or half way? What's the theory in hung ka on this?
The shoulder is relaxed and the elbow sunk. The arm cannot be too straight (extended) for fear of Hyperextending the elbow and to have proper structure that links thru the waist down into the stance. Nor can the arm be too bent, otherwise you cannot fully issue power to the fist.
This is REALLY basic stuff, i'm sure you Sifu could demonstrate the proper fundamentals in just a few seconds. Pictures / video or close up instruction are worth 1000 words.
That's why I told you to ACTUALLY HIT SOMEONE, only then will you know for sure what is best for you.
The basic flat punch or Ping Choi from the chambered at the waist position common mistakes pertaining to the ARMS:
1) are that the bones on the back of the hand should be in parallel aligment (wrist straight across and even) with the forearm. So for example if you straight punch with a bent wrist, you not only chance Bending/Spraining your Wrist back. You also wont damage your enemy.
2) Punching with a loose fist, leads to jam or sprained fingers or thumb.
3) Not relaxing the shoulder and not knowing how the sink the elbow ... yes even slightly and done correctly this is true for the ping choi.
Veritcal Fist or Yut Ji Choi (Romanization spelling sucks) is different but easier in my opinion because it already orients the elbow in the sunk position in a better way.
*** If you are more advanced, where you put the Thumb is another possibility to talk about. I don't feel like typing it all, but it changes the "Energy in your Punch" and your arm. The focus is alittle different.
"O"
When you're young and strong, you think you're invincible and will last forever. After I hit my 30's (and now 40) I noticed it took much longer to heal from injuries. Things don't feel pain free anymore like when I was younger.
People should emulate smarter healthier training like the great Hung Style Masters. Lam Jo, Chiu Kao
you wrote: The question is about the forearms and arms? extended or half way? What's the theory in hung ka on this?
The shoulder is relaxed and the elbow sunk. The arm cannot be too straight (extended) for fear of Hyperextending the elbow and to have proper structure that links thru the waist down into the stance. Nor can the arm be too bent, otherwise you cannot fully issue power to the fist.
This is REALLY basic stuff, i'm sure you Sifu could demonstrate the proper fundamentals in just a few seconds. Pictures / video or close up instruction are worth 1000 words.
That's why I told you to ACTUALLY HIT SOMEONE, only then will you know for sure what is best for you.
The basic flat punch or Ping Choi from the chambered at the waist position common mistakes pertaining to the ARMS:
1) are that the bones on the back of the hand should be in parallel aligment (wrist straight across and even) with the forearm. So for example if you straight punch with a bent wrist, you not only chance Bending/Spraining your Wrist back. You also wont damage your enemy.
2) Punching with a loose fist, leads to jam or sprained fingers or thumb.
3) Not relaxing the shoulder and not knowing how the sink the elbow ... yes even slightly and done correctly this is true for the ping choi.
Veritcal Fist or Yut Ji Choi (Romanization spelling sucks) is different but easier in my opinion because it already orients the elbow in the sunk position in a better way.
*** If you are more advanced, where you put the Thumb is another possibility to talk about. I don't feel like typing it all, but it changes the "Energy in your Punch" and your arm. The focus is alittle different.
"O"
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by Subitai » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:32 pm
SifuYui,
I'm very intrigued by your loose fist comment. I'm curious, do you do allot of sparring or touching hands with loose fists??
I personally would only use a "LOOSER" Fist for punching if I were in VERY VERY Close range and can aim the knuckles properly. It is only in this way could you be certain not to JAM a finger or sprain your thumb.
Surely you're not suggesting that you hit with a loose fist from a HIP Chambered Position? (or i.e. originating from the waist?? )
The reason I ask is because that would go directly against the basic principles of Shaolin.
Punch like a "Stone connected to a rope" (rough translation)
At IMPACT: Your fist should be hard and compact(like a stone), to deal max damage and to prevent injury. Your arm should be loose and supple for relaxed speed and contraction. Also your center cannot be manipulated easily if your arm is relaxed.
Have you ever used the old trick of putting a ROLL of Coins in your hand before you make a fist and punch someone? That's what a basic HG Punch should feel like (to his enemy anway) This should be part of every students basic "Gong" for Punching. For Southern Shaolin like Hung Gar...it's the basic.
In my class, unless it's a special reason (like up close) I wouldn't recommend NEWER students to punch with a loose fist. That should be for experienced people only. What almost always happens in fighting with loose punches is that someone will Jam a Finger or Sprain a Thumb.
Of course, I am not saying that you personally couldn't do it loose. Just stating the basics.
For a basic punch, I was taught to punch with a stone not a sponge.
I'm very intrigued by your loose fist comment. I'm curious, do you do allot of sparring or touching hands with loose fists??
I personally would only use a "LOOSER" Fist for punching if I were in VERY VERY Close range and can aim the knuckles properly. It is only in this way could you be certain not to JAM a finger or sprain your thumb.
Surely you're not suggesting that you hit with a loose fist from a HIP Chambered Position? (or i.e. originating from the waist?? )
The reason I ask is because that would go directly against the basic principles of Shaolin.
Punch like a "Stone connected to a rope" (rough translation)
At IMPACT: Your fist should be hard and compact(like a stone), to deal max damage and to prevent injury. Your arm should be loose and supple for relaxed speed and contraction. Also your center cannot be manipulated easily if your arm is relaxed.
Have you ever used the old trick of putting a ROLL of Coins in your hand before you make a fist and punch someone? That's what a basic HG Punch should feel like (to his enemy anway) This should be part of every students basic "Gong" for Punching. For Southern Shaolin like Hung Gar...it's the basic.
In my class, unless it's a special reason (like up close) I wouldn't recommend NEWER students to punch with a loose fist. That should be for experienced people only. What almost always happens in fighting with loose punches is that someone will Jam a Finger or Sprain a Thumb.
Of course, I am not saying that you personally couldn't do it loose. Just stating the basics.
For a basic punch, I was taught to punch with a stone not a sponge.
- Subitai
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- Location: Southeastern, CT.
by SifuYui » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:21 pm
Hi Subtai,
When I spar, my hands are still loose as I described. Let me see of I can paint a picture of how I hold my fist: the thumb is on top of the index finger (similar to the Phoenix Eye, but resting on top), the "face" of my striking area in a Ping Choy are slightly out, with the pinky extended the most (not to say it's full extended) so that each area is gradually going out, with the index finger the tightest when I hit. I don't teach this method to my students as it is something I'm comfortable with and that I've trained for years. I show them how I do it, explain why I do it, and demonstrate how it's beneficial to me. But as you said, most people are more comfortable with the standard fist. It's similar to when you throw a jab, the fist is not tight, but I train to hit that way 99% of the time. And yes, absolutely I can throw it from the chambered position at the waist as that is one of the ways I practice - from a horse stance.
Here're a couple clips where you can somewhat make out my fist shape:
3:34 of the 10 Killing Hands,
3:37 of Iron Wire
That's a good anology about the stone on the rope as that is what I strive to achieve when I practice my punching, especially when working the "internal" punch. As you know, when you've been training this for a while, you develope quirks that work for us that we wouldn't necessarily recommend to others or is "normal"
As for the roll of coins, I use that as an example of how my hands are but without the coins. I know it seems to be counterproductive and counterintuitive to make a fist this way, but like I said, it's something that I've practiced for years and I make it work for me; when I hit someone/something, it is like a stone, not a sponge...
Yui
When I spar, my hands are still loose as I described. Let me see of I can paint a picture of how I hold my fist: the thumb is on top of the index finger (similar to the Phoenix Eye, but resting on top), the "face" of my striking area in a Ping Choy are slightly out, with the pinky extended the most (not to say it's full extended) so that each area is gradually going out, with the index finger the tightest when I hit. I don't teach this method to my students as it is something I'm comfortable with and that I've trained for years. I show them how I do it, explain why I do it, and demonstrate how it's beneficial to me. But as you said, most people are more comfortable with the standard fist. It's similar to when you throw a jab, the fist is not tight, but I train to hit that way 99% of the time. And yes, absolutely I can throw it from the chambered position at the waist as that is one of the ways I practice - from a horse stance.
Here're a couple clips where you can somewhat make out my fist shape:
3:34 of the 10 Killing Hands,
3:37 of Iron Wire
That's a good anology about the stone on the rope as that is what I strive to achieve when I practice my punching, especially when working the "internal" punch. As you know, when you've been training this for a while, you develope quirks that work for us that we wouldn't necessarily recommend to others or is "normal"
As for the roll of coins, I use that as an example of how my hands are but without the coins. I know it seems to be counterproductive and counterintuitive to make a fist this way, but like I said, it's something that I've practiced for years and I make it work for me; when I hit someone/something, it is like a stone, not a sponge...
Yui
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by Mig » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:17 pm
Thanks for everyone. Your input is much appreciated. It just happened that when I think about the basics I reconsidered what I learned 30 yrs. ago and now with age I like to hear some other comments and adapt to my daughters learning experience.
Best,
Mig
Best,
Mig
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by laukarfei » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:08 pm
"Anyone who trys to say that gloves protect the person being hit, HAS NEVER BEEN HIT BY A BOXER. haha."
ive been hit by a boxer and i am one, and they do protect the person being hit lol. anyone who says otherwise is well..uninformed which you must be.
ive been hit by a boxer and i am one, and they do protect the person being hit lol. anyone who says otherwise is well..uninformed which you must be.
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- Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:27 am
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