Styles designed to beat Hung Kuen?

[Subitai]

I happened to be reading my Si Hings Ezine forums on Kung fu magazine and I eventually came across some YouTubes of Choy Lee Fut applications....Then upon reading some of the comments on the "VID Itself", it brought up a subject that was discussed in the past.

Still, like most things that have probably been talked about to death, I was curious about any new opinions on this.

Ok, here's the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEFUX-Gw0E

...and then read down to this dude:

castroherman (3 weeks ago)
My sifu told me that Choy Li Fut was ahead of its time in that while other styles had amazingly strong defense and attacks, Choy Li Fut added the fast continuous circular motions to add kinetic energy to muscular energy, neutralizing pure arm strength defense. Its hard to stop a whirlwind of saos!

The reason I even bring it up is that in the past i've heard some people claim that CLF, designed strikes to defeat HK bridges. I'm not sure if it was Chris aka Illusionfist or someone else but there was also a reference to a CLF wooden dummy with a special wieghted arm that was used to train your strikes to be strong enough to break through HK's strong bridges.

Anyway, the comment by the guy reminded me of that.

So out of curiousity, does anyone have a picture of such a dummy or does anyone actually HAVE one? ???

It's interesting...here is part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atxXi_7rU2c

"O"

[Asmo]

Something like this?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky70E88tFrU[/youtube]

There are quite a few video's on Youtube, but this apparently shows the whole form associated with that dummy. I've also seen weights being hanged on the opposite side of the arm. I guess that way you can make it as hard as you want to get that arm down.

For the rest on the topic of new opinions, since FrankyLau showed us his Malaysian lineage Wun Ying Fook Fu Kuen (he might have removed it from his Youtube account now...) I think long hands have been part of Hung Kuen way before Wong Fei Hung already.
For the past few years I first became to understand that WFH added the long hands in exchange with Lama Pai and that Hung Kuen was short bridge, narrow stance before. But after seeing Franky's video I changed that idea. Of course we had the water punch in Fook Fu Kuen already, but the video shows many other types of long hands. Played slightly different, but long hands nonetheless. Maybe WFH only changed them into what we now know as chut sing after exchange with Lama Pai (also adding drunk lohan), that might be. But importing them as something entirely new into Hung Kuen, that I don't think so. Long hands being present in CLF (and maybe other southern systems?) only adds belief IMO they they were present already. Its nice to make stories about why CLF has them and how they came to be in Hung Kuen but I think it would be near impossible for the systems to be developed entirely separately from each other without exchange whatsoever. And weren't CLF and Hung Kuen developed with a common goal to defeat the Ching, and share the common root of southern siulam?

But what do I know

[banditshaw]

Wasn't Bak Mei also a system designed to counter Hung Kuen?

[PM]

style designed to beat another style, well, i do no know...

[laukarfei]

hes implying techniques, not the style itself. and it makes sense to me, although the dummy im not so sure, regardless other styles have powerful short bridges so considering the similarities between southern fist and the popularity of those styles it would definately be a good idea.

it would also be somewhat reasonable considering we are told that clans were formed around the styles and they identified each other by their relative skills, wich is different then if someone just attacks you at a bar

also, in the modern world you see bjj was developed to neutralize the skills of larger strikers vs smaller opponents

so again..id say probably, regardless if you were serious about protecting your family and your own life i would imagine youd spend more time working with weapons, that might be worth looking into..

[J.M.Mroz]

It would seem to me the pure circular movement of the strikes would break the bridge someone puts out, Ala Bowl punch...

The strikes to me, just look like offensive re-directing.

What a great training tool, the weighted arm. What better way to gauge your progress?

Ex.

When I started, I used 10lbs. Now I am up to 30lbs. And it probably helps keep the dummy arm from breaking and needing repairs.


Guys that break boards or blocks, if there was a reuseable item, why not?

[mok]

Hey "O" - interesting topic, where you' going with this?


I remember seeing a vid from Sharif, saying CLF's leaning charp choy was meant to slip under and beat Hung Gar's side-punch ... IMO but that's just 1 punch and 1 interpretation.

Personally I don't think CLF was meant to beat Hung Gar, so much as it evolved out of Hung Gar, + a very generous dose of Haap Gar.

As for styles specifically invented to beat Hung Gar? Ever notice how every chinese style claims it was invented to beat Hung Gar? Bak Mei, Mantis, CLF, even Wing Chun... heck they all claim it. Maybe because back in the day, Hung Gar was known to be effective. You wouldn't bother claiming your style "z" was made up to beat syle "x" if , if style "x" hadn't already made its point.

cheers

mok

[Subitai]

Asmo,

Yeah, that's kinda like that one I saw in the past. Perhaps slightly different but the main arm could be adjusted with wieght. I like what you wrote about new opinions.
***********************************************
Mok,

For myself, I can't guess what people were thinking when the forms or skills were developed. I can only look and see how it effects me and my students.

It’s just that the poster on that video got me thinking again about an older topic…but it’s still interesting to think about. I have allot of my own opinions on this of course.

The guy suggests that CLF made adjustments to deal with pure arm strength defense. Well there are methods like that in HG and you did say that HG is and was popular way back when…so it’s only logical to at least make the jump to think he MAY have been speaking about a style like HG.

I think Hung Gar or any style must accept change or at least acknowledge it in some way in order to remain well rounded.

I say that because I’m still of the opinion that people don't fight quite like they used to... say 100 or 200yrs ago or more. If anything, the world has become smaller and more populated. People nowadays are more educated and if they have the desire to learn...they also have MORE access to learning fighting skills.

About the dummy work.
A dummy is just a static tool and people are not static, they move in different lines and can be smart or crafty.
A dummy is a good training tool to a point, but ultimately will hinder you in the end...just like a beginner can benefit by using a mirror at first, for form correction, but then later its a hindrance cause they look at themselves too much in the mirror. Drilling live with other opponents teaches you better timing and flow vs. a real person.

Both solo dummy and live drilling have their places of course. But if I had a choice to do only one, I’d pick the latter.

"O"

[18energies]

Mok,

Please elaborate on where you have heard that Mantis was designed to beat HG?

I'm only mentioning this because I've studied both HG and mantis..and that's a new one for me.

As for styles "designed" to beat HG? I've only heard of Wing Chun..

[Asmo]

Wing Chun supposed to come from southern siulam as well... Haha, man, so many stories

[TenTigers]

Wing Chun, Southern Mantis, Hung-Ga, CLG, all were around at the same time, all descended from Siu Lum Kuen. All involved with Fan Ching Fuk Ming. No system was designed to beat the other, they were all fighting Ching. Back then, styles didn't have names. There was no need to. Only after the demilitarization of Martial Arts, when schools were vying for students, did they give their systems names and "Traditional Histories." Only then, did they compete against each other. "New Comet, with Super Chlorinol III is better than Brand X," "New CLF with poon kiu, is better than Hung Kuen."

[brianlkennedy]

Let me add a historian's viewpoint; there is, to my knowledge, zero reliable historical documents that discuss the reasons why any of the modern southern shaolin systems were developed.

So to say system "A" was developed to counter or in response to system "B" has no proof...that I am aware of.

As someone who has an interest in the "business history" of Chinese martial arts I would strongly guess (note, I am guessing) that systems were created as marketing tools to distinguish one teachers approach from anothers.

As for the idea, for example, that Wing Chun was developed to beat Choy Li fut and Choy Li Fut was developed to defeat Hung Gar and Hung Gar was developed to defeat Mok Gar (or whatever sequence you want to set it in)---I don't buy that.

The problem with that theory is it assumes that in a real duke out the guys are going to stick to their specific style...I doubt that. The earliest film footage I have ever seen of southern shaolin fighting (it was shot in Macao if I remember right) shows two guys kind of half assed throwing punches and you can not really tell who is from what system. When I say that I do not mean any disrespect to the guys in the ring on that day back in the mid 1950s, the had the guts to get in the ring in front a a big crowd. I respect and admire them for that...but I am just saying what I saw.

take care,
Brian