Traditional or Chop Suey ?

[Frank Bolte]

[Chris H]

I think a common problem is that people let the doctrine of a system (i.e. its outlook towards fighting) dictate what they can achieve physically. In other words, they limit their overall physical potential to that of what the art chooses to specialize in.

When you use a Hung Kuen technique and switch to something else from another art, its not like your body "morphs" into a different body in order to use that technique. There are system-specific principles that guide movement of course, but at the end of the day, good body mechanics are good body mechanics. 9 times out of 10, if you are using a technique that is from a different art and its not found in your art, its because that art's overall fighting strategy is different. Does that mean you can't integrate it? Nope. Don't limit your overall martial potential by narrow system doctrine. Then again, its not the "system's" doctrine that is narrow per se. It is the people who are interpreting it and making it doctrine in the first place.

All martial arts are mixed, and they all borrowed and stole from other arts. Use what you want, just make sure that whatever you incorporate doesn't put you into an even worse position for having used it.

Peace

[PM]

ok, couple of random comments:

- it is true that today's Hung Kyun is jaap ga, "mix of different families", Chinese (!) MMA. however, the various styles were synthetised into a coherent system by people who had regular real fighting experience and whose life was all martial arts from dawn till dusk. question is: do we judge are arsenal throught he glasses of modern sport fighting (Western boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, MMA... ) or war/street fighting scenarios, hobby or... ?

- Hung Kyun is both long/short bridge system- if i have a chance to work out with some long bridge (CLF? Hap ga, lama paai... )/short hand (WCH, SPM... ), why not! my friends often helped me to realise something that i did not see. sometimes you "know", but until somebody else from the other side of the fence does not show you, you do not realise really. i am not interested in their techniques, but way of drilling, strengthening, conditioning, concepts of distance, entries, usage of power, approach to dealing with kicks/strikes/throws/submissions etc. Chinese say: "practice one family, analyse hundred families". does not mean that i start to teach chi sau drills next month. on the other hand, i have incorporated into our training some strenghthening and conditioning exercises form other Hung kyun branches, pad work concepts from x-boxing styles (using HK arsenal though), boxing timer for rounds when doing the basic shadow drills or training application drills, kettlebells drills etc.

- even if we do not incorporate certain techniques, we still have to train them, eg. low kicks and roundhouse kicks, to be able to defend to them. however, a) our way of dealing with them might be different than in the arts who use these techniques b) it is absolutelly necessary to spar with the guys to whose systems those techniques belong to (as it is often really funny to see gf guys to mimic how the boxers or wrestlers fight). experience! out of the box sparring and experience is a must, be it within or outside the school.

- adding a certain technique to your arsenal might change the whole picture a, lot. for a boxer eg., it is not that simple to add a roundhouse kick to his arsenal and go to fight Muay Thai guys - guard is different, concept of distance is different (kicks!), close range game (elbows, knees, throws!) is different etc. the same goes for tactics and strategies - Hung Kyun arsenal might not work with a taijiquan strategy a vice versa.

- time change, today we have a rare chance to meet different martial artists from all parts of the world, either personaly or through media (DVDs, books), we do not live in the Ching dynasty China... if want to enter a tournament a follow certain rules, we have to adopt and change to a certain degree, if want to win. if we want just some experience, no need to change that much. in a friendly sparring between different schoos and styles, it is best to keep our own thing - we all know how a boxer or wrestler will fight, what is his strategy. do they know how we will fight? (i do not take in acount the problem that many of the Hung kyun guys do not know how they themselves would fight, ok). guys o the streets do npt carry spears and sabres anymore, but clubs, baseball bats, knives etc., they do not use gwa -kap- chaap combo, but jab - cross - low kick, or any of the common non martial arts type of atttack. my TCMA school is in postmodern Europe of 2008, not in Southern China of late 1800's.

- last random though: do we really need to incorporate anything that works? it is not better to have couple of reliable and universal techniques, and work more strenthening and conditioning, ie. gung? if one has no stance, no bridge, no striking power, no finger power, why does he not switch to other system which will suit him better?

all the best

[ngokfei]

Just a quick observation.

Hung Ga isn't a style but an association. We tend to confuse this point, especially in southern styles.

WFH learned from various individuals who were members/followers of the Hung Moon etc.

He was more famous then the style in which he did.

So taking that into account - you can add whatever you want to your training.

I personally don't see how "round house Kick" or any long range kicks violate the principles/theories of Southern Fist. Just take a look at the Mok Family Style. they got a vast arsenal of leg skills worked alongside Classical Southern Fist.

Also I've seen the so called "5 Families (Hung, Mok, Lau, Lee, Choy) and they all have pretty much the same guiding principles and foundation. Hung Kuen appears to be the one that adopted the various aspects (mainly hand skills) into its regiment and so we have the WFH Method.



the Traditional aspect really pertains to the "Forms". But even that is up to the exponent as we can clearly see the assimilation of various elements to make up the WFH Branch of Hung Ga Kuen/Moon.

From my observations the best "fighters" all trained with multiple teachers. They weren't concerned with preserving anything that did not work. So this concept of "Traditional" really hurts the progression of Martial Arts. (ie Kung Fu).

[PM]

[ngokfei]

I find it very hard to believe that any martial art did not have "kicking" skills within their style.

There isn't one style today that doesn't have them.

If my memory serves me correctly Mok Gar has jumping and spinning kicks in it so the target would be above the waist, probably to the ribs or chest cavity.

Here's a short clips

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOlZG8du418[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlBvFi1TyQY[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs1DD-zJTG8[/youtube]

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDU2ODcyOA==.html

also check out this link (translation is not that good though)
<a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.kungfunews.com/gongfu/2006-12/93.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=8&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25E8%258E%25AB%25E5%25AE%25B6%25E6%258B%25B3%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2005-28,GGLG:en">http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.kungfunews.com/gongfu/2006-12/93.html...</a>

[markt]

I think it all depends on your reason for learning.
Is your motivation for learning primarily to learn and study a tradition, or to improve yourself and your interactions with other people?

Of course there are cultural factors here.. I don't think that in the west most people understand the relationship between teacher and student, the responsibilities implied, and the role that philosophy plays in many aspects of Asian culture.

But, traditionally, no one stuck to what they learned stubbornly, so why now is that attitude considered traditional ? If we look at what actually happened, it is more traditional to take what you learn and apply it to your own body and your strengths and weaknesses. Even within one style, all movements are not intended for all body types. Each movement has strengths and weaknesses. Not all movements in Hung Ga are good for all practitioners.

But, when you are teaching, and you say that you are teaching Hung Kuen, then you should be judged by a different standard. Hung Ga itself is a tradition that has been passed on for several generations. Yes, there have been some changes, but there is a common foundation. So, give your students the same opportunity you had to learn the art, and anything else that you throw in, be honest with where you picked it up from.

[PM]

[ngokfei]

[PM]

i base my findings on what i have seen:

- Mok Dak?, 5. generation of Orthodox Mok Ga (Mok Ga Jing Jung), teaching in Kowloon, Sham Shui Po (i am not sure about the last character, i did not find it the dictionary i have)

- Lam Jungwai (old sifu from Chinam he is really old now; he is from Canton)



i suppose that they were not influenced by Bruce Lee movie madness, so they did not add any fancy kicks to their system. i have also a book on Choi-Mok system - same thing, regular Southern types of kicks. Mok Ga was famous for its kicking techniques, Mok Ga fighters used them much more often that the other Southerners, but is does not mean they had all the different types of kicks. the opposite is true, just few kicks that they have been drilling over and over.
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as for Tit Kiu Saam, there are no written records for him teaching and practicing anything elde than tit sin kyun and long pole. if you have any reliable source telling more, please share it with us.
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southern styles - i do not know the names, i just have them on a video from different performances, but if you look at SPM, baak mei, lung ying, Hung Kyun, Fukgin white crane etc., all have very few kicks, and all of them are low. CLF and Jau Ga are exception, as they were influenced by Northern systems.
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naam kyun bak teui is of course very rough generalisation, but still there is a lot of truth in it. just compare the percentage of kicks in Baak Siulam/Naam Siulam sets, or the warm up/fundamental drills (gei bun gung) in Northern/Southern systems.
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i think we are a bit off-topic here; my point is: long range/jumping kicks will change a structure and fighting strategy of Hung Kyun, it is not as easy as "roundhouse to the head (double leg take down, whatever... example, ok?), cool, let's put it in". i personally like it, but i do not need it, as we have a lot of other stuff that works, and more techniques we have, less time for making them work we have (speed, power, accuracy, timing... ). although i am a big fan of MMA, i do not agree with "we need everything" approach.one of my friends, Muay Thai guy, can kick the head really well, as he has some good set ups, i can get him with po paai sau really well, but we do not feel it is necessary to add each other's technique in our own repertoir.

today's TCMA practitioners think their art does not work because it is technically inferior. they are wrong - if they just learn different techniques (from their own systm or borrow from other styles) and do not spent sufficient time on conditioning, strentgthening and various reality based sparring drills, even all the greatest techniques from the world's top martial arts are not going to help them.

[ngokfei]

Yes have not only heard of these 2 individuals but have direct contact of lineage holders.S. Martin is from Lum Jungwai lineage and his sets are supportive of my statements. Please feel free to contact him directly or any of his students.

What sets have you seen them perform?

the Choy Mok book you mention only demonstrates an intermediate set.

the styles you listed do have kicks as I stated in my 1st posting. I can't comment on these other sets/forms you have viewed.

Requesting actual documentation regarding Tit Kiu Sam is right up there with looking for any written documents on the many martial Arts teachers. Most of the statements made are generally repeating what was heard and then written down. Just like the comments that WFH created FHSY when there are numerous Hung lineages that have a set wth the same name but no relation to WFH.

In regards to the comparison of Foundational Drills/Training pertaining to kicks that really has to do with the Instructor/teacher of the school. Many a BSL school while having kicks in there sets preferred to focus on hand and footwork material.

Everything changes. So even the addition of Long Range Fist skills to Hung Kuen ahs changed the basic theories and structure of the style. The exponent has to make the decision on what they wish/desire their training and skills to be.

And you said it again. Being aware of techniques outside of ones training will greatly benefit the exponent when they might have to combat against them. Some will just be content with being aware of them while others will absorb them into their training. Doesn't mean the forms of the previous generation has to be altered to satisfy this. You'll see a new set created to structure these new skills into the pre-existing material.

Its aparent that we agree on some things but will never agree on other things, which is how it should be. The proof is in our skills and those we pass on to our students. If we all taught the same material the same way then we would go the path of what happened to China and its inability to adapt to modern warfare.

[PM]

i am in no way expert on Mok Ga Kyun, what i say is:

- i have never seen Mok Ga Kyun set with any other kicks than those who are in the other Southern systems and "fit" the structure of the Southern systems; i may see just basic or intermediate set as you said, if you find a footage of an advanced set, which has something else than what we can commonly see in Mok Ga, please share it with us. i will scan the article on Mok Ga kicks i have and post it here (or better in other thread, not to hijack this one).

- kicks in many of the Southern systems are not used as often as in other systems, there are even systems with just few or no kicks, just like "old Hung Kyun" (Lou Hung Kyun). most, if ot all, are aimed at the low gate (knees, groin, soft ribs, daan tin).

two stories, food for thought:

in HK, my sifu was showing to my gf brothers from Canada how to deal with a Muay Thai low roundhouse kicks to the leg and the body. his father, Grandmaster Lam Jou, came out of his office, and said: what is this, this is not the way how low kick, we have our ngau sou geuk, this is Taai Gok Kyun (= Muay Thai), are you teaching Taai Gok Kyun?! my sifu said: father, i am just showing them the counters and explain the strong and weak points. ok than, good! said Grandmaster.

on one of the local forums, one guy who currently studies traditional Goju Ryu Karate in Japan wrote: during last few years, i have kicked thousands and thousands front groin kicks. in the sparring with Muay Thai guys, my mae geri vs. Muay Thai roundhouse kick works perfectly.

my point is: in our Hung Kyun, we have long - midle - short range techniques, we have kicks - strikes - takedowns - submissions, we have fist, palm and finger strikes, we have straight - circular techniques; and it is definitely not just a bunch of techniques put together by our ancestors, but a clear and logical system (ok, at least to me).

we should concentrate not on the technical side of the art (as it is in no way inferior to other MA), but on skill, on making these tools work, ie. spend time on conditioning and strengthening. the other MA are not good beacause of what they train (ie. roundhouse kicks, takedowns, boxing combos or ground game), but how they train.

in some respect, i teach very differently than my sifu, or do things differently than my sifu, as i am me, gwai lou in a central Europe, teaching bunch of other gwai lous, having my own experiene different from his, but i teach the art he has taught me. if i would not, i could tear down my Hung Kyun sign and put a new (MMA) one. adding some words to my vocabulary, change a pronounciation or accent, or add an exercise to my text book, why not, but adding words from pidgin English or different language would just spoil my grammar (which is very bad indeed ) that i am trying to improve.

[PM]

as for Mok Ga Kyun's kicks, let's continue here

http://www.hungkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=532