What is the true history and origin of Hung Gar?

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Hi

I have posted a similar question on another forum and a poster there recommended that I come here as similar things had been discussed. For many of you this will be a re-heated topic and I apologise for that but as someone new to the Hung Kuen world I'm eager to learn as much as I can.

I've tried to find answers through reading up online but there are so many sources saying so many things I'm just hoping someone here will have done some scholarly research and be able to dot the 'i's' and cross the 't's'.

Hung style comes from Southern Shaolin, right? But which Shaolin? From what I understand there are three claimants to that title.

Did Gee Sim really exist or was the story of the five elders fleeing Shaolin fabricated by anti-Qing Triads to add legitimacy to their activities and martial arts?

Which brings me to the next question who was Hung Hei Goon? I've read that his real name can be rendered 'Chu', the name of a branch family connected to the Mind royalty. Was he a real person? Or are the references to Chu and Hung just anti-Qing signposts? I've read various stories about Hung Hei Goon but by and large Luk Ah Choy seems to be the person who did the spreading of the art.

And how did Hung Kuen develop over time from its original root? I hear that the curriculum that Wong Kay Ying had was greatly revised by Wong Fei Hung. With the Taming the Tiger set being the sole survivor of the earlier curriciulum. However, what I cannot establish is whether Wong Fei Hung simply codified the existing material and rearranged it. I read that Tid Kiu Sam learned Taming the Tiger and an earlier form of Tiger-Crane via a different route the Wong Fei Hung line and five animals also appears to have antecedents but I'd welcome clarification.

Thanks in advance for any help that may come my way.

[PM]

hello, i alredy replied on the other forum, i will also post it here for the members of this one:

- the oral history says Hung Kyun comes from the Southern Shaolin. which one (Fujian, Fuqing, Quanzhou)? no clue. old text speak only of Fujian Shaolin or Nine Lotus Mountain Shaolin.

- Jisin simsi: well, i do not know, all we have is oral "history". might be like this or that. what we certainly know is that Jisin simsi is first time mentioned in a written sources in "Thousand Years of Ching", a novel from cca. 1893. the written sources of Triads do not mention Jisin or any other of 5 elders (Ng Mui, Miu Hin... )

- Hung Heigun is another story, he seems to be a real person, as a person with this name is mentioned in Fujian archives (as a rebel who killed some guy with a single strike), i have also read that his grave is still somewhere there. traditional oral story goes that he was a tea merchant, but one of his ancestors was 15. son of the last Ming emperor

- as for the branches of Hung Kyun - there are many, and many different. for last couple of years i have been doing research in China (so far just in Guangdong), but even there asre many legitimate branches of what we call today Hung Kyun: fu hok Hung Kyun, saam jin Hung kyun, hubg syun Hung Kyun, Lau Taan Ho Hung Kyun, Dang ga Hung kyun... some (old) Hung Kyun branches are also in Fujian. (gung ji) fuk fu kyun is common only to some of them. curriculum differs a lot, but the core concepts are similar. (old) Hung Kyun is very close to all Fujian styles, especially White Crane (i belive it is one of the manin sources of todays Hung Kyun). no doubt that most dominant line in Gwongdung is Wong Feihung's or better say Lam Saiwing's Hung Kyun - i heard them from all of the Hung kyun masters in Southern China i have met, and i have met many of them.

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summary: Lam Saiwing and his generation is very well recored. we have also some reliable written and oral sources about Wong Feihung. before Wong Feihung, nobody knows.

the question is: what is it really Hung Kyun? old sources speak just of "martial art" or Shaolin, just rarely of Hung Kyun. Wong Feihung's Hung Kyun is mix of various martial arts of Southern China.

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hypothesis: Hung kyun is a generic term of martial art practiced by members of Chinese secret societies (Hung mun) in Guangdong and Fujian? the story about its origing is a typical foundational myth, same as in the case of the origin of Hung mun (Hong men, Tian di hui, San he hui... )?

btw. similar questions (especially about Southern Shaolin) bother the historians of so called Chinese secret societies - i recommend you to check them out, some very interesting info there

curently there is quite extensive research about the subject in China, if you can read Chinese, i can recommend you some articles

also, check this (article written by brother of Sifu, not much details, but in my opinion really good one)

http://www.lghk.org/en/articles/martialstudies.htm

well, all of your questions will be covered extensively in one of my books (Czech version is almost finished, it will be published in the beginning of next year, Emglish version will follow soon)

[Crosshands]

[PM]

(being a a romantic) i personally believe in the existence of the Southern Siulam. no need to say that the elders of our system (eg. my sigung, Grandmaster Lam Jou, is of course certain). i personally think that the subsequent rich legends are mostly made-up stories, but contain a piece of historical truth.

as for the two temples being destructed, the recorded martial arts "history" is kind of chaotics. some sources speak only about one temple (just Nortnern, or just Southern), some of two temples (Northern and Southern, or two Southern Temples). btw. in the novel mentioned above, Ng Mui and Baak Mei are traitors, and Jisin, Hung Heigun etc. die in the fire of Siulam.

as for the Triad version f the story, i recommend you the book by Dian Murray, The Origins of the Tiandihui: The Chinese Triads in Legend and History - it contains the translation of all version of so called Xilu legend, destruction of Shaolin and founding of the Triad society. no word about Jisin simsi etc. - the five ancestors of Hung mun are: Choi Dakjung, Fong Daaihung, Mah Chiuhing, Wu Dakdai and Lei Sikhoi. the version of the martial arts circles and Triad societies differs in manydetails. just the basic plot (Siulam monks helping the goverment, envy and fear, treachery, total destruction of the temple, monks who have escaped from the burning temple... ) is one and the same in the most versions.

Hung Heigun is probably a real person, so is Luk Achoi. Juy Yujai, a student of Lam Saiwing, mentiones some stories about Luk Achoi which he has heard form his teacher, and which Lam Saiwing has heard from Wong Feihung.

as for Tit Kiu Saam, we have no idea about his curriculum. the old sources speak only about "iron thread". as for his disciple Lam Fuksing, most sources mention also "flying weight/plummet" (fei tou) and some "five element set" (ng hang kyun). no word about gung ji fuk fu kyun or tiger and crane

as for pre-Wong Feihung curriculum, i personally thing it has consisted of gung ji fuk fu kyun, rudimentary version of tiger and crane, rudimentary version of five animals (!), long pole and maybe some other weapons. he has probably practiced more setsútechniques which were the material of the sets he later developed. of course, i am speaking only about his lineage. as i said before, there are many different lineages in Gwongdung and Fukgin.

what is interesting, most of the sources claim that the long bridges are later addition to the system (well, they differ in by who and when they were incorporated). everythig points back to Fukgin and its "short bridges narrow stances" systems

(wait for my book, all the info above will be there with many details)

all the best,

[Crosshands]

PM just let me know when your work goes to the presses. That sounds like its going to be quite a title.

[SifuYui]

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[SifuYui]

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[Mig]

I agree in most of the presumptions about the history of HungKa. However, I find quite interesting in reading about those times of turnmoil and rebellions. It is worth to ready Justus Doolittle and other about the ambiance and customs of those times from 1800-1900 so we can better appreciate the tales, stories and may be some validity of their oral tradition.

Best,

Mig

[chusauli]

To the Chinese, we remember our father and grandfather most. If we can trace sufficiently to Wong Fei Hung and Luk Ah Choi, that is enough. All the pre-Luk Ah Choi presumptions and assumptions can be wrong.

Gee Sin was fictional, but there was a monk named "Tung Sum" who is reminicent of his doings.

Hung Hei Goon was a composite of various Ming rebels.

The name "Hung" also refers to a "vast flood spreading through the South".

"Burning of the Siu Lam Ji" means quelling a Ching rebellion.

[PM]

hello Robert,

interesting info, thank you! do you please have the Chinese characters for the monk Tung Sam and any other information related to that person?

as for Hung Heigun, i read somewhere that he was mentioned in the Ching goverment records as rebel who has killed somebody with a single strike, and that there is his grave in Fujian somewhere. but of course, i did not see it personaly, so i do not know.

Hung, makes sense, very good translation, thnx!

any other info as always appreciate!