Wing Chun/Tsun similarities/differences?

[vaulander]

Greetings people. I have heard a lot about how Wing Chun and Hung Gar are like bridge intensive styles, especially in the 'Techniques against Hung Gar' where bridges are mentioned. Sifu also spoke of Wing Chun and how we (Hung Gar) have the same moves. So, I got a book just to see what WC is all about. From my initial assessment, and I haven't finished the book or practiced more than a simple Pak Sau drill with Derrick and Scott just to try it out, here is what I think some of the differences/similarities are:

Wing Chun uses higher stances, shorter footwork, and a lot of pivoting to express power. They don't have the claw, or it is not a big component of the system. They seem to avoid the brutal crushing blocks that Hung Gar are feared for. Like Sifu said when I told him about an application session Scott and I had, 'punish anything that comes your way.'

The similarities I see are very simple; everything I have seen in this book exists in Kung Gee Fook Fu. Pak Sau, Lop Sau, even the basic Pak Sau drill we tried, every move is in Kung Gee somewhere. Every drill I looked at can be converted to Hung Gar in like two seconds, and still work. (That could just be because the three of us are noobie beginners, so even crap works since we don't know better.)

So, my question to those who know more is very simple. Is there something I missed? Are there other differences that separate the two styles? Hung Gar, broader, deeper stances, more power moves, animal fists, vs Wing Chun, narrower more mobile stances, shorter more direct moves?

Will experimenting with Wing Chun drills and adapting to Hung Gar work, or are they incompatible? I mean, I have looked everywhere and I can't find much about Hung Gar drills, but there are thousands of youtube clips on Wing Chun, I have 12 DVD's of forms by Wing Lam, and the Hung Gar book he wrote, but apart from some applications I don't know shit.
I mean, like Guitar and Bass Guitar, both have strings and frets, even the same tones, only an octave difference, guitarists can solo like nobody's business, and the bass player can funk it up with slaps, pulls, etc.
Hell, I don't know what I'm rambling about.

EDIT: The book is "Close Range Combat Wing Chun #1" by Randy Williams
V.

[Xiaobian]

Hehe, one of my good friends does Wing Chun, although we havent' seen each other in ages.

I would also add that Wing Chun is a very defensive style, and doesn't teach covering a lot of ground at once. Just as with all Hakka systems, It's about controlling your area, hence the tight formation, pulled up torso, and half-horse half-cat stance fighting stance. Hung Ga is much more dynamic including all ranges of fighting, great chasing and retreating moves, and powerful crushing combinations.

[vaulander]

Okay. What is Hakka systems? Like the southern systems? Sort of like an area specific designation like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland are part of Scandinavia?

[laukarfei]

the biggest difference imo is WC is more true to its roots, it appears very little has changed in the system in comparison to hung anyhow. hung has developed and changed alot more for whatever reasons...

the difference in bridging as far as i can tell is how they are used, many styles outside chinese arts bridge, but how and why vary. WC as far as i can tell uses the bridge to "seek" an opening.

hung doesnt just bash people but its harder in that when were soft were doing so aggresively to "create" the opening.

but those are generalizations it doesnt mean we cant be soft and reserved and it doesnt mean they cant be harder. really WC seems to have more controll of the opponent then hung but in hung style the power development plays a big role so you really dont want to or shouldnt have to hit many times, like in war you just want to put em down and be on your way next opponent.

that doesnt mean WC punch is weak though lol you understand. there close proximity and the way they use the bridge allows them to strike the vitals easier, hung can strike vitals to but really anything you hit should break rofl

these are my oppinions, ive never trained wc

[Xiaobian]

Hakka systems are a philosophy of fighting systems which come natively from the southeast China, like southern preying mantis, bak mei, wing chun, etc they tend to have shallow rooted "sticky" movements with the toes pointing inward and feet which rarely leave the ground (almost dragging), dantian turned up, and elbows sticking in toward the center of the body. Hung gar has hakka influences in it, but hung gar is also a style that went through a lot of evolution.

here is some bak mei which shows the characteristic sticky stances and tight elbows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGr35kPHe-k

I often feel that hung gar is like a mountain. It's passive, but won't hesitate to crush anything which disturbs it. Many hung gar opening techniques are passive and deflective , but the follow-through is overkill. Wing chun is more technical and manipulative, but it is easy to get outside their range.

My friend who trained wing chun said that it's a very compact style, and he was really glad to learn some shaolin because the training really helps with power development and being able to attack and chase an opponent quickly, and retreat and evade quickly.

[vaulander]

I guess that makes sense. Wing Chun is apparently very influenced by the Crane, or was developed from it, at least partially, if the stories have basis in fact. Thus avoiding or deflecting incoming attacks instead of just crushing or ripping the arm, like the Tiger would do. Just hypothesing here, but I do sense a different feel in what I am reading.

[Asmo]

[TenTigers]

[vaulander]

[Asmo]

Lin gung is hard training yes... Stancetraining (which is not doing forms with weights), hardening (sam sing, etc), strenght training, etc.

Maybe as a guideline: forms (in one way or the other) makes about 20% of my total training time. Love to hear what other people's ratio is

My session yesterday which might be helpful to create an idea what your session might look like:

- loosening up
- 10 minute sei ping ma (always do 120 breaths, that varies from 9 to 12 minutes)
- stretching the legs
- forearms (holding 2 poles at the end, switch bowstances and do circles, up&down, left& right)
- sam sing (well, I use a iron bar as I don't have a partner at home to train)
- grabbing the bag, tiger claw with a bag with iron pellets
- 6 gings (my selection of 6 very different ways of power generation in easy 2 step techniques. 20 repetitions of each (10 slow, 10 fast))
- 3 rounds of 2 minutes on the bag, Franky's bag form, with wrist weights.
- stretching, lift the sky qigong to 'wind down'

Not a single form Well, OK, maybe Franky's bagform

Most times when I do a form its either:
- fook fu kuen and the heart of fu hok (tiger, crane and long arms). About once a week
- GGFFK with rings, once or twice a week, 3 breaths per stance. (20 to 25 minutes for the whole form)

Occasionally I go outside for bing hei and then I do forms exclusively, then I also do fuhok entirely and ggffk without rings, with all the weapons. But last time I did this was like 2 months ago. Next year we plan to move to anew house then with a garden to I can finally give the weapons proper attention

[vaulander]

On the other hand, you know the forms inside out, I'll imagine. Perfecting something good, while I am trying to improve something bad/poor.

On a normal day, I get up, suck down some coffee and breakfast, use the chin up bar, ride to work, stretch my legs, go into the breakroom's bathroom to change my shirt, doing an arrow hand, drop for twenty on the knuckles, work until lunch, Kung Gee and Saam Sing? on a steel pole behind the building, finish work, ride home, stretch, Kung Gee and bagwork in the garage go inside for dinner and stances, maybe some arm work beyond the pullups.

I have the chinup bar right by the bathroom. Every time I leave the bathroom I do as many arched pullups as I can,(arch your belly forwards, strains the belly and abdomen.)

When I ride, I don't just mosy along, I race. Goal is to get there faster than the day before. As I stated in the other thread, holding stances isn't a problem, squeezing the egg is, as my arms are not as developed as my legs. I would give plenty green for an arm-driven bicycle, hehe. I hold the record among the cart-pushers for most carts in a line, I can push cars like nobody's business, but it's all in the legs. So far I can't even curl 75 pounds, but I will get there and more.

The problem is discipline. Doing forms all day isn't hard when you love doing them. Adding weights, or using heavy (for me,) butterfly swords is just an added bonus. Just lifting weights or doing pushups isn't fun at all, it's just something that must be done. Guess that's my biggest challenge.
V.

[luen]

Hey, I think we are all together in Fujian white crane.

[Asmo]

[PM]

[TenTigers]

yeah so did I. Remember way, way back on the Southern Forum when I used to express my ideas about comparrisons between Bak Hok, WCK, SPM and Hung Kuen, and people used to jump all over me? memba?
"oh no, it has different engines, and platforms, and schematics, and vectors, and endoplasmic reticulums, and shoehorns, and, and.....