NaamKyun.com Discussion Forum

Self learning by books, dvd's, youtube clips, and brainsweat.

"You can't learn from DVD's and/or books..."
"Find a good teacher to help you..."

Since I am about to commit what could be mistaken for Heresy and/or Sacrilege in this post, let me put a disclaimer in here:

I am not suggesting that you consider these tips instead of going to a proper school or finding a good teacher. Truth be told, if there was a Hung Gar school or teacher where I live I would gladly pay over $200 a month and rearrange my social/work life to train with that teacher. I would save so much time and effort to learn things proper to begin with instead of trial and error. This post is for those of us with no access or funds to join a school.

For example, let's take the set Kung Gee Fook Fu Kuen. It consists of a collection of techniques in the most efficient way of execution, strung together. It shows footwork, blocks and parries, along with various strikes and kicks. Done by itself, the form is good exercise for health and posture. Various schools/lineages add breathing to certain parts to stimulate internal health and Chi, or energy.

In order to learn this form, the pure pattern of movements you need these things:

*Video or DVD showing the form, preferably in sections with slow movements. Books, while somewhat helpful, can be very difficult to follow for proper movement, heading, how the hand moves from the hip to final position of movement, etc. More on the value of books further down.

*A video camera. This is to take clips of your performance so you can see what you need to change/adjust, in comparison with the learning DVD/Tape. That way you can also upload to youtube or any other file sharing site so others can see what you have learned and offer tips and advice.

*A notebook so you can write down tips and pointers to keep in mind, like elbows down, back straight, Kiu Sau should be this way, etc.

*A generous helping of self-discipline, with a side order of discipline mixed with perseverance to practice lots and lots.

Now you have the form down. You can do it just for excercise, to impress people, or to get on the dancefloor if you can't dance in the first place. But the form itself won't keep your head from being stomped into the ground if you walk around all puffy like thinking you're mean.

In order to understand and be able to use the moves of the form, you will find these things very helpful:

*Media. Books like Lam Sai Wing's classic work on the form. Every version of the form, every snippet of information you can get your grubby little hands on, different DVD's showing different applications and ideas, clips on youtube, and the like.

*A sparring/training partner willing to experiment and figure things out along with you.

*First Aid kit and icepacks.

Break the form down into components, and drill these components both alone and with a partner on both left and right side. Everything in the Kung Gee Fook Fu Kuen is useful, every movement, every block, every strike. Drill them all, first in style, with the proper stance slowly against each other until you have the principles really good, then do a free-form like application of the move. Restraint and/or protective gear is crucial at this point. Even the most loyal and excited partner will lose enthusiasm after getting bruised and battered repetitively.

Do not blind yourself to the many applications of the techniques. The most obvious application is in most cases not the only way to use it. I have found 7-8 applications for the simple Salute sequence alone, for instance. If you have previous experience with grappling, be it Chin Na, Jiu Jutsu, or wrestling, you will find completely different applications of what seems to be just striking techniques.

Train Hard, and good luck.

In my opinion, you just can't learn without _feeling_ it. You have to experience it through touch..from someone with skill.

Don't get stuck on Hung Ga.. no style is better than another style. If there is any style near you.. learn that. Muay thai, BJJ, Taiji, Boxing, judo ..who cares. It will be better to learn anything properly than something improperly.

I highly appreciate your answer and advice, Markt. I have been trained in Judo, North Shaolin Kung Fu, and Tae Kwon Do, so I am not a babe in the woods. However, I do have a love for Hung Gar, and I won't give up my study just because I am not learning 100% perfect.

Your reply opens a rather interesting question, however...

If nothing can be learned without a teacher, who taught the first teacher?

It's not that nothing can be learned without a teacher. Of course you can learn something on your own.. But how many generations has Hung Ga been refined and passed down through direct transmission ?

In my experience.. all of the most valuable things I learned were through feeling. I've been training 10 years now directly with my sifu, a student of Chan Hon Chung, and I still consider my understanding like a beginner in comparison. I am still learning little, subtle things every time I train with him.

He told me after I had been training for a couple years and I had learned _all of the forms_ that I had not even come in the door yet.
If you want to learn a form just for appearance, fine. You can imitate the outward appearance. But you are not training Hung Ga yet.. and you won't understand it. Because you don't understand it, and you have no one to guide you, you won't be training correctly, and your skill will be limited.

Who will teach you the reason that your hand should be exactly in a certain position.. who will tell you why your seemingly brilliant application is not practical at all and show you why.. who will tell you to make the slight alteration to your posture or strategy that makes the difference between you getting hurt or protecting yourself ?

At the heart of Hung Ga are the 12 bridges. I would say it is almost impossible to understand these concepts without feeling them. I have never seen a video or book that teaches these concepts.

I am from Norway, but living in Council Bluffs, Iowa, USA for the past 10 years.

And yes, I am saving up to visit a school for proper training. I want to be corrected, shown every small error, so I can work on it when I get home. But until that time, I don't just want to sit still and do nothing when I can practice and train, faulty or no. Of course I realize that self-learning will never be as good as guidance from a teacher, as I stated in my initial post. But better than nothing. If nothing else, it's good for a laugh and a shake of the head when you look at my youtube clips.

I would concentrate on pushups, conditioning etc. vaulander. Maybe a few exercises like ping choi/yat gee choi, etc. And try get corrections over the Internet for just those. You'll need a long time to get those right already. Complete forms is a waste of time and way to hard to get it right.

The further you get in these arts the more you realize its about the basics and just practicing a few techniques many many times.

But still its better to see a sifu first, then train for a long time, then see the sifu again, etc. Even long distance is OK then. Even if its going slowly, you will go forward, which is very rewarding.

It takes a lot of determination to continue on your own, realize that, and use it to your own advantage.

or....what you can do, is post some videos of what you are doing thus far, and we can comment on them, offering constructive criticism.
You can become another of our famous (and never completed) pet projects~!
Sounds like fun.

Also sounds like you might get completely confused from everyone's different take and experience of Hung Kuen. (hmmm...might suck...)

Yeah do by all means do what TT suggests. I have put myself out (t)here as well and although like TT says at times things contradict you will get a lot out of it. Just take advice from the right people and keep practicing. Don't worry about looking like a fool. You wont as it will help you going forward, and that's the only thing that counts

Thank you all for your kind words and advice. I must confess, in the beginning of this thread I was a little dismayed. Here I come all aflame with hunger and enthusiasm and it seemed as if everyone was hurrying to get buckets of water.
Anyway, in order to clarify a bit about my journey I'll give some background information. As a kid of 6-7 I went to judo classes until my family moved, but I kept practicing with friends off and on, then restarted again at 12-13. Again transport became a problem, but I kept my learning. I started practicing 'kung fu' as a young teenager after watching Jackie Chan's Snake in Eagle's shadow. That was probably the seed to my obsession, and my friend and I spent hours blindly copying and making our own little animal styles. At 20, after Norwegian military I joined a Tae Kwon Do class, but had to quit just before Green Belt due to a back injury. At 25 I joined a North Shaolin class in Gothenburg Sweden, led by a man named Boris from Peru.

Two years later, after earning the Green Sash (2nd sash,) I moved to USA, and my training went into hiatus for ca 7 years. I started training again, but could not remember much of the NS forms. Messing around on Youtube one day, I came across Chiu Chi Ling's Tiger & Crane. Aquired it, but didn't bust a sweat practicing it, as it is highly advanced. Further search unearthed Wing Lam Enterprises. I knew Tiger and Crane was Hung Gar, so I looked into it, and aquired far too many DVD's, and started at the beginning, the Arrow Hand. I also aquired several books, like Bucksam Kong's KGFF and T&C, Lam Sai Wing's KGFF and T&C. Currently at work translating and listing the name of the moves in LSW's work, so I have some idea of all the terms that proliferate on this forum.

In short I am a Jack of all trades trying to get a serious grip on Hung Gar, looking at it from 3 different perspectives, Judo and grappling (gotta love the legion of options the Fu Jow offers,) very little TKD as the concepts are completely opposite each other. And North Shaolin and Hung Gar are like cousins. I am familiar and trained in both leg trapping/pressing and Cho Sau, or energy sensing, aka sticky hands concepts. I get ideas and concepts, I just need lots of drilling and experience.

Forgive me if I sound like an arrogant know-it-all or similar, but on the other hand, I didn't just decide one day to learn martial arts, threw a dice and came up with Hung Gar, then started buying books and dvd's. I know I have very much to learn, and a general idea on how to go about it. Watching my own video clips is rather humbling and painful, as I can see how bad it looks, and what I really need to work on.

I would be more than grateful for any comments you good people can offer. my username on youtube is vikverjar, and I have 3 clips of Kung Gee on there, although I am embarrased at how bad my performance is. Also one clip of Monkey King Staff, which makes the Kung Gee look magic in comparison.

Again, thank you all.

ok. After viewing your form, what you need to do is concentrate on only a few things at a time.
Yeu ma Hop Yat. waist and horse combine as one.
you are way too much upper body focused. Your shoulders are over extended as is your entire upper body, throwing you off balance.
Falling foward on all your strikes..
Focus on your dan-tien. Feel everything come from there. Lead with your dan-tien.
SIT in your stances. When you go back into your cat, you are not nailing your stance, you are still all upper, hence lower body as well, foward.
You need to connect with your horse (all stances)your waist,back.
Your Butterfly palms are not focused and scattering in all directions. Focus on the power coming from yuor centerline/dan tien.
Just work on that for now.
How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

Thank you, TenTigers, I shall work hard to correct my stances, and drill the Die Zhang until I do them in my sleep. I have found that my back screams at me when I lean forward during the form with armweights on. I shall practice that way from now on.
V.