Luk Ah Choy

[SifuYui]

I was emailing someone about Luk Ah Choy and it got me thinking about him and his "Bio". Some questions I have from reading stuff on the internet. I apologize if this topic was covered before:

From Hungkuen.net: http://www.hungkuen.net/masters-lukahchoy.htm
From Yeeshungga.com: http://yeeshungga.com/our-style/lineage/lukahchoi.html

It said that Luk Ah Choy (LAC) was a classmate of Hung Hei Guan (HHG) - was this at the Shaolin Temple or afterwards in Guangdong, after Gee Sin Sim See sent him to train with HHG? If it was after the burning of the Shaolin Temple, then that means Gee Sin escaped and lived a long life as LAC supposedly trained with him for a long time. If LAC and HHG were training brothers at the Shaolin Temple, then LAC would have had to A) leave the temple before the burning or B) escaped during the burning; how come no stories of him escaping with HHG and Gee Sin? If LAC left before the burning, where did he go and how did he hook up with Gee Sin again? If LAC trained with Gee Sin for a long time, then why send him to train with a disciple (HHG) afterwards?

The only reason I wanted to throw it out there is because LAC is the earliest person up the Hung Kuen lineage that we have verifiable written record of, so his story is very compelling. The sad thing is I just checked my own website and we don't even have any information on Luk Ah Choy, so I'd like to remedy that with a bio that makes more sense than what is out there, if I can. Stories are fine as long as it makes sense since most of Chinese kung fu history during this tumultuous period was orally passed down and hidden within flowery phrases (that we today may or may not be translating correctly).

Thanks, Yui

[PM]

Check out

http://practicalhungkyun.com/history/le ... -founders/

[SifuYui]

Thanks Pavel. At least this version makes more sense and answers most of my questions. So to reiterate, LAC was never a classmate of HHG at the Shaolin Temple or otherwise (unfortunately I always thought they were the way his bio was written). They are training brothers because they share Gee Sin as their sifu. A couple of things don't quite add up though:
1) If LAC spent a long time training with Gee Sin and learned everything, why train with HHG? Did HHG's kung fu progressed so much (after leaving Gee Sin and the Shaolin Temple) that LAC felt he could learn from his "training brother"?
2) How did LAC know who HHG was considering he changed his name AFTER he left the Shaolin Temple - word of mouth perhaps, but then the Ching troops looking for traitors from Shaolin would have found him too.

There's a rumor that LAC WAS HHG, and that he created HHG to give Hung Ga more "history"

Good read, thanks.

Yui

[PM]

Well, to be candid, I do not know. Some sources say that LAC was indeed HHG's classmate in Siu Lam temple, like your and mine article. Ji Sin and LAC could meet again after the destruction of Siu Lam in Hoi Tung Monastery. HHG and Ji Sin never met again, at least I did not found any reliable info if they did. LAC however probably trained with HHG.

Jy Yu Jai wrote an Unofficial Bio of Luk A Choi, vut i was not able to get it. I have one old story about LAC in old Chinese - if you can translate it, let me know and i will send it to you.

[Fan Kwoen]

According to http://www.amazon.com/The-Shaolin-Monas ... 082483349X
there probably was no southern shaolin temple,
hung gar only being related to shaolin by legends, not by facts.

In Hong Kong, I've also heard people say Hung Heigun is not a real name, as Heigung means official. Therefore, it might just be a reference to Hungmun, with just legends making him a person.

[Daifong]

My Sigung, the late GM Lam Cho explained to us that Hung Hei Gun was a Siu Lam Yap Sat Mun To Daai/ "inner chamber student", and not a tonsured monk. He is reputed to have trained with Ji Sin Sim Si.

Luk Ah Choi, according to our tradition, "...was among Ji Sin Sim Si's group of students taught after the destruction of Siu Lam temple, upon that master's arrival to the Guangdong area."

From this, we have at least two possibly fictional characters, and one possibly fictional location. If we assume core truth in this tradition, it is simply stated that both men followed the Venerable Ji Sin at various times. By a stretch, it is suggested that they are "classmates".

Now, the way I see it, whether LAC was "sent" to continue his training with HHG, "looked him up on his own", or, "ever trained with him at all" is a matter of both legend and conjecture by all accounts. Also, after a number of years, we will all have junior classmates whom we have never met, and possibly Sisuks we are "senior" to (in terms of chronological years). These, and more, could most certainly be sent to us (or look us up) for "furthering their knowledge".

Finally, most of us will (hopefully) make connections/ gain experience/ have breakthroughs of our own over the duration of a lifetime. These, above and beyond what might be reasonably expected, in following a standard curriculum, to basic proficiency.

Hopefully these stories are taken as food for thought, or illustrative of some important principle, not taken always quite so literally, especially to the extent as so much dogma, lol.

My Sigung's words, "If you can learn something, then it is a useful story. Otherwise, how is your training today?"



Best,

Michael