Wong Feihung's role in creating the "New Hung"

[Daifong]

[Daifong]

[Hong Quan]

Hi Michael,

Many thanks for the reply and information.

It states in the book published in Canton City, by Leung Daat on the Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen set that:
The form was developed by Lam Sai Wing, choreographed by him around the beginning of the new Dynasty (1912)
and was developed from the techniques that He had learned from Wong Fei Hung
He then goes on to list techniques of the old Hung and later the further curriculum of Daan Gung Kuen, Seung Gung Kuen and other sets.

Also it says in the Jyu Yu Jaai version that the skills were inherited from the past and passed down by Lam Sai Wing and so not devised by Him.

The list of Wong's Hung curriculum was in the Leung Daat book, not Jyu Yu Jaai (my apologies).

However, in the Tit Sin Kuen book by JYJ it mentions in the forward that LSW followed the tradition and had learned martial arts in his family and then learned from lam Fook Sing, Wong Fei Hung and Wu Gum Sin.
He then says that later LSW took images and characters of the Tiger and Crane as a base as well as techniques of Hung Ga and Fo Kuen (secret Buddhist system, not taught to outsiders) and founded the Fu Hoc Seung Ying Kuen.....

So we can clearly see here some problems. First, that it says WFH never taught Him Fu Hoc and that LSW Himself had learned different information to come up with this new set. But Buddhist style was only taught to monks or insiders at this time and so how could he have learned it ?????
Of course it also has a photo in the book of WFH, but we know this isn't true and so another problem here. (page 16)
He then writes a legendary tale about TKS that continues until page 37.
Leung Daat also states that the Gung Ji set was choreographed by Lam Sai Wing, from sections that WFH had taught Him, such as Daan Gung Kuen, Seung Gung Kuen etc.
Leung Daat also mentions in his book that Jyu Yu Jaai has written a book about Gung Ji with pictures and explanations told by Lam sai Wing.

Some interesting thoughts, from these two gentlemen..

[PM]

Leung Daat is a fraud, he has never done any Hung Kyun, most of his info is totally unreliable. I have interviewed senior Hung Kyun masters of Canton Hung Ga Association (Ho sifu, Wong sifu, Jau sifu) and they just laughed about his books.

Sure, Lam Saiwing had many teachers (about 6-7) before he learned from Wong Feihung, but it is very well documented what he has learned. However, Lam Saiwing did not learn from Lam Fuk Sing. By the way which book do yoi reffer to? I cannot find the info in my copy.

Also, please check out this article: http://naamkyun.com/2012/07/wong-man-ka ... ying-kyun/

It is written by student of Lam Saiwing - if FHSYK was Lam Saiwing's creation, he would certainly give him credit, my sigung as well.

[Hong Quan]

Hi Pavel,

That is very interesting and thankyou for the added information.

Although the Canton teachers call Him a fraud and laugh about His books etc, He isn't actually saying anything derogatory about Lam Sai Wing or Jyu Yu Jaai or indeed Hung Ga itself. Maybe they just don't like the guy and there is some politics involved (happens all the time in Martial Arts unfortunately).. ???
Leng Daat says that Lam Sai Wing devised the set from things that WFH had taught Him and in the article that you kindly posted, (which I just read), He says Wong Fei Hung devised the set...
I don't believe either of these stories/legends. i believe that these were the oral stories regarding the development of the system, as passed down through the WFH line until today.
For instance the story goes that WFH took his favourite 10 killing hands/techniques (that He had learned from experts in these techniques) and incorporated them into His new Fu Hoc set. But this is simply incorrect, because they are already in Gung Ji (of which he only learned and Had nothing to do with its development) and so if these techniques already exist in Gung Ji, why say that WFH learned from seperate masters and addded these favourite techniques into a newly devised set ?????
The thing with any type of history is to start by doubting everything and let us see !!!! When we start to doubt we begin to slide down a slope that is hard to recover from. For instance we need to start from the bottom up and look at all the details before WFH's time and what was around etc and then we are not just believing in the stories and legends without carrying out proper research from doubt..... I have written a book on this which I plan to publish very soon...
Unfortunately, people always want to look for the best teacher and the best system, but it is only the player that must try to be the best that he can be and challenge His art by practicing it everyday.

Thanks for sharing the information so far Pavel.

By the way the Leung daat information is translated into a Gung Ji studyguide, along with the JYJ translations, by the WeI-To group, Evert Van der Meulen etc.. I believe that you can download it free of charge from the internet

[Daifong]

[PM]

[Hong Quan]

Hi guys,

This is great and thankyou....

That is the initial reason that I posted the original question, to open a nice discussion with fellow players....

The Leung Daat information is only an example of another perspective, so is good to hear your views on Him and His training etc...

Everything is well documented AFTER Wong Fei Hung's time and His lineage perpetuation, but there are still loads and loads of stories/legends surrounding Him and Lam Sai Wing and so not quite as clear cut. Plus the lack of photographic evidence and people believing His son to be Himself. If things that He had learned and passed on were that well documented, then surely these anomlaies would cease to exist ?

I am looking forward to the Ten Hands text that you are preparing, will be very interesting...

Also, I believe the Hop Ga influence on Hung Ga is incorrect and it was actually like I have stated, the Buddha's hand techniques added in and not Hop Ga techniques. Also, as I have mentioned, not taught to outsiders and so this is another perspective to the story.

Also, you must look at all the stories regarding WFH's learning of TSK from Lam Fook Shing. This doesn't make any sense either. Reasons are: WFH learned TSK from LFS when He was 13-14 and only after helping Him during a street performance, where Wong Kei Ying was supposedly present also, the story goes....
Tit Kiu Sam didn't pass away until 1888 and LFS was a student of His until this time and only opened His own school after this time.... If WFH was born (as legend tells us) in 1847, then after 1888 and LFS opening His school, He would have been 41 years old ??????????????? Why would TKS allow His student to open a school and teach His most famous set whilst He was still alive and a student of his and History says that His students only went away when TKS passed on in 1888.....
Also WFH supposedly opened His first school in Shuijiao when He was 17 years old in 1863, which is in Hainan across the South China Sea ?????? Unless it means he opened a school of Chinese wrestling ?????
So therefore, like I say, if you start from doubting all these wonderful stories and legends and look at the dates etc it opens up a whole can of worms and starts to unravel...
Can you shed any light on these things ????
Also, if WKY was with His son when they met LFS, then as the elder, why wasn't he taught the TSK, if WFH was still a young teenager ????
I will tell you all about my lineage shortly, but first I wish to hear about these anomalies...
Many thanks guys...

[PM]

Couple of notes:

- both Lam Fuk Sing and Tit Kiu Saam did not have a school; Tit Kiu Saam was an opium addict
- i have not seen any detailed (places, datas.... ) about Tit Kiu Saam and Lam Fuk Sing, so hard to guess (again - state your reliable source)
- why Wong Kei Ying did not learn TSK? We do not know if he has not, but - Wong Kei Ying and Lam Fuk Sing were more or less same generation, so it would not be appropriate. "Please teach my son" - hell, yes.
- Wong Fei Hung has opened his first Mou Gwun in Canton - do not rely on Google translate, bro Jyu Hoi mean Pearl River, Hoi Naam means "South of the River", not Hainan province.

No can of worms, but a lot of half/inaccurate info

Btw. check out http://practicalhungkyun.com/history/li ... -kiu-saam/

My book has this part much, much longer with more details, this is just a short summary for the web.

[Hong Quan]

Hi Pavel...

Sorry but you have stated an inaccurate comment...

Tit Kiu Sam did indeed have a school ... He had a school in the Canton Dye works at Rainbow Bridge....
When He died his student, which also had the name Hung Hsi Kwan (not Hung Hei Gung, of course) only managed to keep it open for 6 months. All His other students went away, such as Lam fook Shing and the others. Hung Hsi Kwan was 21 years old in 1888....

This is direct information from my Grandmaster Lai Ng Sam.. So now you know my lineage and my source.

He also clearly stated that Wong Kei Ying was in fact a student once of Tit Kiu Sam Himself and so the story of Lam Fook Shing needs to be looked at again....

The Wong fei Hung material was from an article of research and not google translate ha ha, but good try in trying to catch me out lol It says he had 2 schools, the latter being in Canton...

My book is all about my lineage and some interesting new knowledge and perspectives on Hung Ga itself.

My Grandmaster Lai Ng Sam, came from a very closed door school and was extremely humble, with few students (old school) and knew these people. So again you cannot disregard his inside knowledge either...
You did not mention the problem in dates, that I bought up.. from Lam Fook Shing and WFH being 41 and not 13 etc ????
Also Frank Yee notes a different history regarding WFH (and His Sifu was a student of WFH).... So again different stories, different histories. Not clear cut.....

Anyway, good to discuss and the rest of my researchg I will present in my new book....

Thanks guys..
Any more thoughts or ideas, please mention here...

[PM]

[Hong Quan]

Hi Pavel,

I am trying to find the article by Frank Yee where He says that some of the forms differ from Tan Fong and LSW.. That is the differences I mention regarding history of the forms etc, not His lineage. I will keep looking for it and will paste it here if I can remember where I saw it.

Chiu Kao, was NOT the teacher of Lai Ng Sam and this is incorrect.... Even the WEi-To school have incorrectly assumed this, as they couldn't work out where the Hung Kuen came from in our lineage..
However, LNS learned the Gung Ji set first, when he was very very young 7-9 years old and not once He left China for Hong Kong in 1949.
Chiu Kao even sent a delegation from China (twice) inviting LNS to teach His whole curriculum and to be the Director of the academy there in Canton, but LNS's views toward Mainland China, was still bad, after all the conflict He suffered there, when the Japanese invaded etc. So He declined these offers.
As He already knew Chiu Kao, later in Hong Kong, He went to His school to workout and to make some weapons for Chiu Kao.
LNS always said that Chiu kao wanted to learn our old 5 animal and 10 animal sets and some old/rare weapon sets, but he never taught Him.........
I have asked His son Chiu Chi Ling myself and through one of my students for any evidence of Chiu Kao having taught LNS Hung Kuen and no evidence has been forthcoming.
Plus, when you look at our lineage and the forms, it is very clear that LNS did not learn from Chiu kao.
The Wei-To group have also published some inaccuracies regarding our lineage and form names etc have been changed (from translations of Chinese texts), that don't belong there Aand therefore it is my wish, in my forthcoming book, to correct these problems..
A Tai Chi classmate of my Sifu Jeff Hasbrouck's, (in Hong Kong 1977) after introducing Jeff to LNS, told Jeff that LNS learned Hung Kuen as a base/foundation, where other Southern Shaolin marterial was built upon. So this was many years before LNS fled to Hong Kong and made weapons etc for Chiu Kao.. So He had already learned Southern Shaolin Hung Kuen from His Sifu and that is why there is no forthcoming evidence from that avenue.

The other point that I wish to make is the wording of these legends in all the stories. For instance, in the text where LSW learned the Commander Sword. It states that he had a chance meeting with a guy (how convenient), where he told LSW a secret that He had to promise not to tell anybody, whereby, He then goes on to say excatly what this guy Had asked Him not to share with anyone..... So, He broke His promise, or, the story was another folk type legend...
Plus WFH having a fight with up to 30 - 100 people holding staffs and axes lol He was only human and this is absurd and I don't know why people blindly believe these fanciful folk stories... It makes no sense....
Once the folklore and silly stories are taken out, then the true history can be obnserved and researched..

[Hong Quan]

Here is the text that I was referring to, where LSW promised not to tell and then the whole thing that He got told gets written down.... Stories like these are just that (stories).... So cannot be taken as histyorical research !!!


He sighed and said: ” I don’t tell people my history. You’re good to me so I’ll tell you but I need your word not telling people my secret.”

So Lam Sai Wing promised.

He did not push himself for fame or benefit, and stayed in this abjection status as a shoemaker, a low class job, accepted poverty, he was of high personality, very seldom in this century,” Lam Sai Wing thought.

Lam Sai Wing wanted to help and got from his money purse some money and gave it to the shoemaker, saying: “Here’s a small amount of money, hope you can accept it. I don’t know whether it’s enough for carriage fares to return home.”

As this happened all in a sudden, shoemaker was excited and said: “Good enough good enough! How rare is a gallant man like you available in this awful world. If I can return home it’s because of the goodness of your heart and I wish I may know your great name.”

Lam Saiwing told shoemaker his full name. Shoemaker looked at LSW said:” Your figure is very strong and grand,
seems to be well-trained in martial arts, don’t you?”

LSW didn’t deny and told the fact. Shoemaker said:” I’ve a vanishing skill called Commander Sword, willing to present you as a gift. I don’t know if you mind this minor skill or not?” Lam Saiwing was very happy, agreed. Shoemaker taught promptly Lam Sawiing with utmost attention, and until Lam Saiwing intimated fluently, he departed.

A year gone by, coming to the festival of Fa Dei God Birthday, all habitants prepared well for this great occasion – dramas, Lion Dance to support this celebration, and invited Lam Saiwing to perform kung-fu, to enchant people with his new items.

Lam Sawiing didn’t have any chance yet to perform Commander Sword learnt from the shoemaker even he practiced it fluently for long time. Seizing this fortunate festival moment, as numerous Kung-fu artists gathered here, why not play it to entertain people, so he performed it. Just finishing, a huge applause broke through the air, even martial artists applauded in the same time with all spectators. Lam Saiwing never imagined it could be so successful.

[Daifong]

[Hong Quan]

Yes Jeff Hasbrouck is my Sifu and this is Him walking through Fu Hoc