Hung Fut and Hung Ga relation

Hung Fist, Buddhist Palm

Hung Fut and Hung Ga relation

Postby researcher » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:25 pm

Question for Hung Fut people... (I asked on an other forum but got completely unrelated comments)

It seems like there is a strong relationship between Wong Fei Hung's Hung Ga and Hung Fut, visible in the forms and movements, as well as many of the names of forms such as Fuk Fu Keun and Teet Sin Keun. The "hung" of Hung Fut is apparently from Hung Hei Goon and not of Hung Ga founded by Luk Ah Choi. Modern Hung Ga didnt take the current shape until it was modified by Wong Fei Hung, prior to that it was a short fist high stance style similar to Bak Mei or SPM. From that I assume there was a connection post Wong Fei Hung to Hung Ga. Can any Hung Fut people shed some light on this?

This is a clip of original Hung Ga, which looks nothing like modern Hung Ga nor Hung Fut:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja2WVX2_Zn4

And what is the Fut Ga source of the system? Fut is a common name that is often used with styles from Fujian Shaolin. Choi Lei Fut was originally called Fut Ga Jing Jung, Lama Pai once was called Fut Ga too. Southern Fut Ga also uses that name Fut, but changed later to be called Seh Ying Diu Sau. The Green Grass Monk from 9 Lotus Shaolin also in Fujian taught his system called Fut Ga Jeung... I know of at lease 5 others who use Fut as well but its often the same story of referring to the Buddhist origins of Shaolin. Many styles share that name so instead of assuming Id rather get a proper source.
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Postby PM » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:04 am

hello researcher, some interesting info and analysis in your post, thnx!

i talked to Hung Gam Pui sifu and his son in HK, and he has told me (if i remember correctly) that their sets are basically the same as ours (i mean the sets that bothh we and they do). i think i saw Hung Fat fhsyk and it was basically the same as ours. there was definitelly some influence of WFHs Hung kyun on todays Hung Fat - however, i do not know any details.

i have done some research on the web, this is what i have found about Hung Fat (at least some detailed info about its origins):

http://hungfutpai.tripod.com/history.html

http://hungfutpai.tripod.com/BaiMaoZhao.html

http://hungfutpai.tripod.com/HungYiuJung.html

can you visit Hung Kam Pui sifu and ask him? he has a school at Nathan Road, close to prince Edwards MTR station. he is very friendly and open, and his gungfu is excellent, excellent!

http://hungfutpai.tripod.com/Grandmaster.html

ps. i saw the answers on the other forum, no comment, ha ha
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Postby researcher » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:49 pm

Thanks for proper help! Thats right, Hung Fut has forms such as Fuk Fu Keun, Fu Hok Seung Ying, Ng Ying, Teet Sin Keun, etc., and even a Hang Jeh Pang (monkey staff). Hung Fut of course is its own style and I feel it quite excellent, but its hard to deny that there is WFH Hung Ga within.

This is from Yim Tai's site:

The style is a hybrid of Hung Gar (Hung Fist) and Fut Gar (Buddhist Palm), two southern Chinese systems of Kung Fu. Wun Lei was a Buddhist Palm master and also a student of the great Hung Gar founder, Hung Hei Gung. Having the full knowledge of both these systems to draw from, Wun Lei combined the low, strong stances and ferocious hand techniques of Hung Gar (a hard style) with the relaxed, internal movements of Fut Gar (a soft style) to create a new style, aptly named Hung Fut.

Hung Fut looks like a combination of modern Hung Ga and whatever (Fut Ga?), but even they seem to be under the impression that what Hung Hei Goon taught was the same as modern Hung Ga.

I think your right, its been a while since I spoke with Hung Kam Pui but maybe time I call him up and get his input on this.
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Postby Daifong » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:19 am

Beancurd learned Hung fut before, he used to mention it...
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Postby Elmakai » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:56 am

Hung Fut's (at least the lineage that I do) first two forms are Gung Ji and Fu Hok. I am not sure about Sup Ying and Iron Wire being in the system. My experience is that Hung Fut tends to put a lot more emphasis on crane, as opposed to Hung Ga's tiger. Considering what researcher said:

"The style is a hybrid of Hung Gar (Hung Fist) and Fut Gar (Buddhist Palm), two southern Chinese systems of Kung Fu. Wun Lei was a Buddhist Palm master and also a student of the great Hung Gar founder, Hung Hei Gung. Having the full knowledge of both these systems to draw from, Wun Lei combined the low, strong stances and ferocious hand techniques of Hung Gar (a hard style) with the relaxed, internal movements of Fut Gar (a soft style) to create a new style, aptly named Hung Fut."

So it seems to make sense.
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Postby researcher » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:30 am

Elmakai wrote:Having the full knowledge of both these systems to draw from, Wun Lei combined the low, strong stances and ferocious hand techniques of Hung Gar (a hard style) with the relaxed, internal movements of Fut Gar (a soft style) to create a new style, aptly named Hung Fut."

So it seems to make sense.


Thats exactly where the problem lies! When Wun Lei learned Hung Ga it was NOT a style of low strong stances... it was a Fujian style of high stances until Wong Fei Hung redesigned it!

Fut Ga was a name referring to Fujian Shaolin Fist, not a style at all. Again, this Fujian Shaolin Fist had high stances, and spawned styles like Baak Mei, Lung Ying, SPM, etc.

Ive asked around and done my research, and like it or not the answer only points to one reason: Hung Jue Sing (White Haired Devil) was said to have encountered Wong Fei Hung in the past, and as there is absolutely no other information what is left is that the Hung in Hung Fut as far as material is concerned is from Wong Fei Hung, not Hung Hei Goon! For so much information to be passed from Wong's system to Hung's system there must have been far more than just a casual meeting of the 2 masters!
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hung gar hung fut relation

Postby amac » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:46 am

The hung fut that is practiced here in Australia is a family lineage stemming from the Tsui Po family who's grandfather learnt the system from white haired devil in southern china before he travelled to Hong Kong. From what i have seen displayed from clips on the internet the forms practiced here in Australia from this lineage are quite different from overseas clans. Our forms do indeed include the Iron Wire form, and a five animal five element form similar to Hung Gars version. If White Haired devil did indeed meet and share with Wong Fei Hung this would explain the difference in Australias Hung Fut as opposed to overseas clans.
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Postby Daifong » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:23 am

Somebody just put up a series of Hung Fut clips on youtube, including the Hung Fut Tit Sin Kyun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7062o8IxghE

:D
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Postby Daifong » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:48 pm

Siu Lam Nam Pai clearly represented!

:D
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Re: Hung Fut and Hung Ga relation

Postby paul » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:25 pm

Hung Fut was geographically close to Mok Gar also from before Wong Fei Hung, perhaps the development lies there.
Hung Chiu Sing was about 20yrs WFH's junior and learned his HF from around the age of six+ in Fosan perhaps he spied WFH though i have'nt heard of them ever meeting....he was known to and by the Jau brothers however. There is also a Taoist element in the 4th and 5th generations....the reasons behind low and wide stance work does'nt automatically add up to a liason with WFH...imo...
Chan Tai San served with and was trained by Hung Chiu Sing....he never once mentioned any link between the two...
Last edited by paul on Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hung Fut and Hung Ga relation

Postby paul » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:27 pm

I have never heard of Fook Fu Kuen in Hung Fut being refered to as Gung Ji...it does not follow the same pattern.
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Re: Hung Fut and Hung Ga relation

Postby paul » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:17 pm

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Re: Hung Fut and Hung Ga relation

Postby Daifong » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:00 am

The thing about "traditonal Baan Jung Siu Lam systems" (aka "Hung Gar"), is that they continue to add, subtract, and trade on down through the generations. For example, if your Great-Great-Great-Great Grandmaster studied with
Hung Heigun, and so did mine, then it might make sense to pick up something from a notably accomplished
Baan Jung exponent of one's current generation, such as the late, Great-Grandmaster Lam Saiwing.
His Sap Ying Kyun is unmistakable, even if the interpretation/ expression is somewhat "different".

:D

Best,

Michael
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Re: Hung Fut and Hung Ga relation

Postby paul » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:47 pm

No doubt, Michael.The above form is indeed an example of what you explained although an anomaly in HF, this expression of the form was presented by Sifu Li Jian, student of Sifu Wu Sil Nam who was a Sifu in Hung Gar prior to his study in Hung Fut under Hung Chiu Shing. Here is Sifu Leung Kam Ho of the same lineage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oPnOKrBK-I

Best regards.
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Re: Hung Fut and Hung Ga relation

Postby Daifong » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:03 am

paul wrote:No doubt, Michael.The above form is indeed an example of what you explained although an anomaly in HF, this expression of the form was presented by Sifu Li Jian, student of Sifu Wu Sil Nam who was a Sifu in Hung Gar prior to his study in Hung Fut under Hung Chiu Shing. Here is Sifu Leung Kam Ho of the same lineage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oPnOKrBK-I

Best regards.


Thank you for the clarification and insight, Paul.

As I was recently pointing out, on a separate thread:

"...in the Kung Fu circles, we know a Sifu's work due to the changes he has made, which then serve as his personal trademark characteristic. This makes a Sifu's work broadly recognizable, even down through following generations. It's like a map he left behind for those who need to know and understand these things."

:D

Best,

Michael
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