Jow Ga US History

aka Hung Tau Choi Mei

Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby PorkChop » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:55 pm

haha classic!
Even at the Florida Ave school we got our share of crazies.
Don't remember dealing with any like that, though we might've shown a couple some "knuckle love."
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby Tailik » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:58 pm

Jow Ga comes together for tournament honoring the jow ga ancestors

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Re: Jow Ga US History (getting along)

Postby dc_jowga » Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:59 am

well it is very good for the system that the schools today are working together. in explaining what jow ga was like, we have to acknowledge all the groups and while mentioning the feuds/conflict may seem inappropriate--i think it was necessary to understand why they existed and therefore i don't think it was a bad thing. every organization has some type of differences of opinion, even personality. but they do not kill styles or systems, and they certainly don't hurt systems. in fact i believe a little conflict is good. take for example the differences in wing chun among yip man students. I believe leung tings branch became very strong as a result of his quarrell with william cheung. they obviously have very different applications of wing chun and how the art is spread, and neither group is suffering as a result. those who like ting's method go to him or copy him, those who like cheung's gravitate towards him. it would be under explaining to simply say, leung ting is like this, cheung is like that and leave it at a technical difference.

one thing i hear a lot whenever raymond wong's school is mentioned we always hear how good his school is. so here is some background on why that is.

first we should know that out of all the dean chin students, raymond wong spent the most time with Sifu, was his closest student, and really was Sifu Chin's "right hand man". if anyone claims otherwise, i would fiercely argue against that point. i have heard sifu say this on several occasions, and when si gung was here in 90, he stated that he considered raymond second senior to Hoy Lee, hoy as sifu's first student, raymond as sifu's closest student. of the things sifu pondered about, including his considering to modify that stepping form that Deric Mims created, sifu taught those things on sunday and talked about them a lot. if anyone wanted to learn the bak mei or the praying mantis or anything else sifu did in addition to his jow ga--which also influenced his interpretation of jow ga--you could always go to raymond to get it. as far as teaching style, anyone from the old school can recount how crazy and unique raymond's classes were. so crazy, in fact, few people wanted to learn from him. 45 minutes in a horse stance, sparring in the class room with "obstacles" laying on the floor and being thrown at you, hard contact sticky hands practice with gloves on---raymond did those things, and so did sifu chin. i remember sifu showing up on a saturday to teach during deric's class and people getting mad, even some walking out. sifu's classes were that way, and sometimes worse.

raymond had a separate curriculum than the one on the wall in the chinatown school and the only way to learn it was to attend sundays regularly, and then hang out after class. when you got close to raymond, you got to learn it. the guys close to raymond included those from the sparring classes, taught by brighthapt and talley and sparring was every weekend. during the week, everyone who learned learned the 28-form curriculum on the wall, and those who frequented the weekend class did the other curriculum. i think i was the only one from the weekend group who also attended during the week, and i was the only one who took the monthly exams administered by deric mims. actually there were three separate curriculums being taught in the chinatown school. depending on which one you learned from, your kung fu looked vastly different from the others.

as a side note, the only person out of brighthapt and talley's group to open a school was terrance robinson (http://jowhopkuen.tripod.com/). he and i were partners, and in that school, there were two separate curriculums also, terry's--which also included judo, as he was a kodokan 2nd degree--and mine. howard bryant had a school for a while also, but i believe he was in a community center.

i will spare everyone the personal stuff, but eventually raymond decided he wanted to take his jow ga--dean chin's jow ga--and develop it into a school. a few people left with him, i was one, and the idea of raymond teaching what he did on sundays but doing is 7 days a week was exciting. he already had a class at GW, which i believe reza taught alonside raymond, and when he opened the 2nd street school craig lee, chris henderson, jose diaz, ron wheeler and howard davis went with him. i should note that none of the intermediate/advanced guys who went with raymond were paying students from the chinatown school, and none of them had been following the curriculum or taking exams under deric mims. all the classes in those days were taught by me for the first hour, craig for the second hour, and raymond taught everything else. both raymond and craig had their own following and when we opened that school, but it was seen as a "renegade" school, or illegitimate. some students, including me, were told that our rank would not be recognized if we went with the WCBA. rather than be discouraged, it made those of us there work even harder. we competed at every tournament that came our way (raymond paid for some of our entry fees, btw)--we would show up 20 deep, and no one went home empty handed. at that time, we were the most active and the most successful kung fu school, second only to dennis brown's school, which had about 500 students if i recall correctly. we produced more winners than hung fut and anthony goh combined--and they were our only competition. in fact there were only three kung fu guys who ever beat a WBCA student: hung stewart from hung fut, tracy (forgot the last name) from poi chan's school, and troy (jowgaging) from chinatown.

raymond's teaching style was responsible for his students' success, and those of us who trained under him benefitted from it--but we have to credit dean chin for that since his teaching style evolved from dean chin's teaching style.

there were a few things you may or may not have noticed about wong people. one, raymond does not do testing, and i believe he doesn't do rank either. he does not follow a strict curriculum either. each person coming in will get small tiger, but after that he teaches you whatever he decides to teach. he was not really big on uniform either. when the school first opened, we wore any pants you wanted (even jeans) and a frog-button tee shirt with "jow ga" in chinese characters hand painted by raymond himself. we also trained barefoot. and finally, class was where you learned new stuff, and he required your presence for the afternoon to practice. he had a very loose schedule back then, and from what my sister tells me (she trained with raymond for several years after i came to california) it's still that way. he lives across the street from the school, so all you had to do was knock on the door to let him know you were there--and then head over and start training. it is not rare to go by raymonds and find students training at 11 p.m.--just as I found the last time I popped in on him in when i was in DC.

just some random post '86 jow ga history....
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby Tailik » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:32 pm

Maurice "Dc_ Jowga" my brother with due respect, I disagree with a lot of what you have written regarding the D.C. Jow Ga lineage history; however i have to respect you because it is what you sincerely believe without malice so that's cool. I'm pretty sure that there are others more senior than and who have more intimate knowledge of Sifu's Chin's school. There are a small group who made need to dwell on a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding in order to support some of their actions. Out of respect to you and this thread, it's my opinion that there are too many great stories to be shared on a this thread, while cementing the fact that students, grand students, etc. of Sifu Chin have gone on to spread his name and the continued growth of students from his school has been tremendous. I'm sure you and I both have stories and experiences from the chinatown school worth writing and appealing to readers.

All is good and these are some of the best times for american jow ga schools. i know it is for me personally.
Be well Maurice and stay thirsty my friend.
Last edited by Tailik on Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby dc_jowga » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:18 am

i was giving the history from my own observations, and what i heard and experienced. i know that there were people senior to raymond wong in the school, and i believe this why si gung referred to raymond as sifu chin's closest student. sifu referred to raymond as his closest student, and when he taught me things outside the curriculum he sent me to raymond for more info about them.

the four people i was closest to in the school were raymond, brighthapt, rahim and craig. after leaving the chinatown school in 85/86 i learned almost everything after that from craig. when i competed, i often wanted bright present because i got most of my sparring experience from him. when bright stopped going, i went with billy bryant. each of them had a different experience with Sifu and walked away with a different take on his art. they also had a different relationship with the school's leadership, which was deric mims, stanley dea, and raymond wong. raymond's involvement was minimal at that time to keep the funk down and i respected that. his departure from the chinatown school was a good idea and helped the two groups grow. i was well aware even as early as 83 about the ridge between the groups, but wanted to learn so i stayed neutral in order to benefit from everyone's knowledge. but most students didn't do that--they chose sides, which was fine too but robbed them of the experience of another group.

the students and grand students of Sifu Chin are doing a great job spreading jow ga. in fact, I would say that the students and grandstudents have done a better job of spreading jow ga than sifu and the first two generations did. one of the reasons is that guys like you, troy, raymond, hon/reza/john, hoy, and rahim were able to function with strong, clear leadership. in the chinatown school there were too many chiefs and although that also meant a richer kung fu learning experience, the direction of the school wasn't clear because we weren't focused. in a way, that was a good thing because the skill level in those days was very, very strong. we weren't competing, doing PR, out hustling students, and all the focus was on teaching. I don't know how many would feel about this statement, but I believe that over all the 80s produced probably the best generation of jow ga students. Sure we didnt have an Adkins or Craig Lee, but we have the most active, most accomplished generation out of the previous 3 generations. I still stand by the belief that our students would have turned out far better than they are now, if you, me, ron, troy, sharif, rahim, raymond, hon, reza--were all teaching under one roof. of course that won't happen, but that was the climate when we were studying.

i have some stories, great ones, from brighthapt--but many of those wouldn't be appropriate for this forum. :mrgreen:

i am in no way complaining about anything from our history. like i said, i think it was a good experience for all of us and certainly for the system overall. and even as young as I was when I was there, i even had my own feuds and dislikes, and those things made me a better martial artist today. there is a saying in the filipino arts that a fighter's credibility as a martial artist does not come from his friends and family--they come from his enemies. none of us has a happy-happy-joy-joy life as kung fu men, we all have had our share of feuds. but its healthy, and as long as we keep the mission in mind of "one family" and to promote jow ga, its all good!
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby dc_jowga » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:27 am

i wanted to add this. about some of us dwelling on the past.

i think you will find that all traditional martial artists dwell on the past. the past for the kung fu man makes up his soul. we start out and end every class giving respect to our past, and we spend most of our class referring back to things in our past. kung fu with no reference to its history is a very bland, technical art. but when everything from an art's history guides everything you do--we end up with a very rich, purposeful art.

in kyukushinkai, the founder Mas Oyama was not accepted by the rest of the Japanese martial arts community mostly because he was a Korean, but also because he left the houses of the two most revered masters at the time, funakoshi and kano. so he set out to prove that his art was the "strongest" of karate systems. and today, more than 60s years after his first dojo was established, it is still recognized as the strongest karate, even if many men have proven that it is not.

for dean chin jow ga people, we are driven from what we viewed as a slight for our sifu, by even our own kwoon brothers. and this keeps dcjg people dwelling in the past, to make sure everyone recognizes and respects his role and his version of jow ga--and preserves it.
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby Tailik » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:29 pm

That’s cool Maurice “DC-Jowga”. I’m just keeping it humble as a mumble. :) It was great having so many talented seniors under one roof teaching us. During my beginning I had one night with craig, one night with John Chin, and Sundays with Raymond. Raymond was hardcore even if he had been out all saturday night a party or club, he still managed to still give it to us Sunday mornings. Deric Mims shortly returned after I joined and then I joined Deric Mims classes with Eugene substituting occasionally. I had one summer with Paul Adkins on Saturdays when he was teaching in a back yard near my home. I have a collection of the various shirt logos from the Chinatown school I’ll post. Good times then and even better now.
DC_Jowga remember where the old Chinatown broom closet was located? I’ll never forget because Rahim would literally beat me into the closet on sparring nights. I think I was 15 yrs old then and Deric Mims wouldn’t stop Rahim from beating me into the closet until I was covered with too many brooms and mops for Rahim to reach me LOL! Rahim only had one speed during sparring, which was “kill & destroy anything in front of him speed” and if you recall Rahim was 3 times my size then so it was a good learning experience.
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby dc_jowga » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:07 am

yup! i remember feeling sorry for whoever had to spar rahim because you were right, one speed, one mission and that was to take you out! then when i got older i had my chance to get an a$$whupping by him too! i saw him whup up on duke a few times too


i think one reason everyone let rahim just go to work because it just took much to stop him, like getting in the way of a train! some of the guys use to try and put bright and rahim against each other, but i dont think i ever heard of them sparring. i did get to see brighthapt fight eric davis--who was bigger than bright, but crazy as hell. he was the guy who used to walk around listening to the last dragon soundtrack on his walkman, and he was always wearing a kung fu uniform or a robe, spike wrist bands and that afro LOL! he had an interesting cable show too.

eugene used to slam people around too. one exam, when sifu sat in, he had everyone fight eugene (I think troy was at that test), and the match between him and mark bretzfelder got pretty heated, and E went streets on him that night!

surprisingly have you seen ricardo ho do a form? in the 90s he came by one night and did two forms, big tiger and jeet kune, he was just as clean as craig! i asked why he never did forms, and he just said form wasnt his thing. heard some stories about him too.

speaking of forms, one saturday, i asked brighthapt and alma what forms they knew, and brighthapt named about 15 of them. then he and alma did tiger and cougar. i almost passed out!

i wish i kept some of the old shirts and uniforms. i remember when the sweatshirts and jackets came in, i wore them every day and completely wore them to pieces....
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby waltor » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:15 pm

Sifu Gatulda,

Thanks for the history lessons :D


I, as a newer member of the family, appreciate your insights into the older members of the jow family. As you said, the past makes up the kung fu persons soul.

And, I really want to see that guys cable show!

Sho' Nuff!
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby dc_jowga » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:16 pm

hi walter

i looked for the show on youtube, and cant find it. i know one day soon, it probably will show up, hell everything else is!

since your here on the west coast you should make a trip down here and see my school! whenever i travel i always look for kung fu and you find it in the craziest places. when i came back from deployment in 2003 our plane broke down over alexandria louisiana and i found a kung fu school, praying mantis, who taught small tiger as an advanced form. the sifu's name is charles perry, and his sifu's name is raymond fogg, who was one of the first to study with dean chin in the 60s. in 99 i found a choy lay fut school about 3 hours from my town who teaches four or five (i forgot how many) jow ga forms. the sifu's father studied choy lay fut from a man who's sigung was our own jow lung. they only recently began calling those forms "jow ga", because at the time the style was called "fu pow kune". they dont have small tiger/big tiger names, the forms are called fu pow #1, fu pow #2...(www.buksing.com) here in my city was a tai chi teacher who studied "hung tao choy mei" when he was a kid (no sifu named). about ten years ago we had a northern shaolin sifu named Sifu Lai, who also studied jow ga as a teacher.

anyhoo, here's some history, not jow ga history but DC martial arts history (and I can almost guarantee there were jow ga people present) from 1973. exhibition matches between republican congressmen and democrats....

http://youtu.be/GDmX0sMAU3Y

if only today's politicians resolved differences like this huh?http://youtu.be/GDmX0sMAU3Y
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby Tailik » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:06 am

Good stuff Mo! DC-Jowga (Mo for those of us who grew up with him) :D

It's good to hear & dwell on the good, motivating and funny stories. btw, i was usually the one, who Rahim whupped on and I'm sure Troy & Stephanie Dea will confirm that LOL! Stephanie was usually the one putting band aids on me after class and Troy was always the one consoling me riding home on the metro bus :) there is no embarrassment in that experience with sparring Rahim because he and Deric Mims were trying to teach me a lesson. after one of my regular beatings from Rahim, Rahim sat down with me in the locker room and told me the reason he never stopped attacking me even as i flew into the broom closet was because i kept giving up and he didn't want me to give up on the street if i faced someone who was stronger. And yes, by the time i turned 16 i had that moment when i finally managed to stop Rahim from beating me into the broom closet and it was a moment when everyone in class paused for a second, I look at Deric Mims, who was shocked, i looked at Stephanie who was proud, i looked at Troy whose expression was "oh no bro you about to get killed now" and then i finally looked at Rahim from the corner of my eye and even he looked shocked. then of course rahim turned it up from "kill speed, to i'm gonna rip your head off speed".

We all love jow ga and most of us don't really know each other anymore because so many years have passed. the past can never be changed so obviously there are some things you should never forget if it helps your future. That's why i post jow ga history on forums like this.

Sigung told me shortly after the world jow ga competition in singapore back around 1999 or 2000, "don't to spend too much time looking behind me because I'll miss too much in front of me, carry those things that make me stronger and let go of of the things that make me weaker ". he made this comment to me because it pertained to a meeting with Sigung in his hotel room in singapore around 1999 along with me, troy, hon, reza, hoy, rahim and one of sigung's friends; at which time it was clear he didn't want the public negative history about Sifu's school. I don't think Sifu Chin would want this public & negative history either. In my opinion some things should be shared in private with students or anyone else.

i hope ALL of us can motivate and support the newer generation of jow ga brothers and sisters. to be quite honest, the ONLY reason i spend any time on these forums is to support the newer generations and promote Jow Ga. my school and students could care less about the old negative stuff. the focus on positive energy will be immediately apparent once you visit my school or spend time with my students. they know that sometimes i will confront some issues outside our school when i think necessary, but most of the time we're too busy training and loving jow ga so our own history will reflect positively on our school's next generation.

Dc-jowga, almost everything from the old chinatown school is in my school today (muk jong, weapons, shrines, flags, sifu chin's awards, his pictures, letters, lockers, writings and so on) yes i said LOCKERS including sifu chin's, raymond's and bright's lockers. :) All of it reflects the positive history. i have many flags of Sifu Chin's which were given to him and if you or any others from the chinatown school want any of these items to display prominently in your school, stop on by.

peace Mo and my telephone number hasn't changed.
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby waltor » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:10 am

Thanks Sifu Gatulda.

We spoke several years ago on the old version of this forum regarding jow ga history (you sent me that graphic novel Sifu Rahim's student made). I was planning on looking you up this summer when I hope to make it to CA. Thank you for the invitation. I'd love to trade some jow ga :mrgreen:

And Sifu Johnson, as a new "generation" I appreciate your efforts to spread and "reconcile" usa jow ga. I know it is tough, there are a lot of tigers.

-
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby dc_jowga » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:46 am

Good points Deric, I can certainly get with that. I am in agreement with you that a lot of our history can be seen as negative, but I still feel that some of that "negative" must be understood in order to fully understand the real history of American Jow Ga, and why there are now branches of U.S. Jow Ga. Out of respect for your opinion about this, I will keep my posts "positive" because you are my senior and I also consider you a brother.

There is one situation I am passionate about that I will still jump into (we spoke about this last time we talked on the phone), and I am directly involved in that one myself--but as long as the trigger doesn't come up, my lips are sealed about that one also.

Jow Ga, American Jow Ga, is one of those sleeping Lions in the Kung Fu history because we didn't have good PR people. We were sort of the "ghetto" kung fu school, not socially refined, it wasn't packaged to be easily swallowed by the masses, and so we existed in isolation for decades. We weren't featured in magazines although we had great stories to tell and great kung fu to go with it. I watched some (in my opinion) very weak kung fu get highlighted month after month in the magazines and their masters get famous while our own kung fu strongmen like Eugene, Craig, and Randy only reached those immediately around them. The upside to all of that was that we did not go mainstream, so the quality around the school(s) was high and everywhere someone encountered Jow Ga, they walked away with high respect for us and our people. The good news is with the internet, better PR skills, youtube, and more schools (we spent so much time under ONE roof), Jow Ga is getting popular and more people are curious. I get inquiries into my school often because of discussion on the internet about Jow Ga and media coverage--and that's a good thing. And thanks to good upbringing and rearing in the martial arts, when they visit they still walk away with good things to say about us.

I recently made the change in my school back to the two hour class. We still operate without a "little monkey's/tiny tigers/whatever" kids class. And we show up at every tournament and no one goes home empty handed. Jow Ga had a great tradition, which is something we still hold on to. No franchising and "junior Black belt/sashes" here....
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby dc_jowga » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:16 am

I wouldn't normally do this, but...

http://youtu.be/FFQg4xDR7xg (Since we're all family here) :D

I am trying to figure out how to upload videos. I'm a little old school and very computer illiterate. Once I have it figured it out, this clip, which is the menu from the DVD we made, will be taken down... lol
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Re: Jow Ga US History

Postby Tailik » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:43 pm

dc_jowga wrote:I wouldn't normally do this, but...

http://youtu.be/FFQg4xDR7xg (Since we're all family here) :D

I am trying to figure out how to upload videos. I'm a little old school and very computer illiterate. Once I have it figured it out, this clip, which is the menu from the DVD we made, will be taken down... lol


Dc-jowga, you still look sharp as ever and your students reflect your training and good skills. it's a great idea and wish you luck with this project and hope that you'll continue other projects. I would tell your students that you were one of the hardest workers of our generation in the d.c. china town school and that you paid your dues through not only hard work, but also through your loyalty and respectful behavior as a student. I mention that because i see today that others want recognition as sifu, master, grand puba...etc & they tell their students that they should be respectful, dedicated & humble, while the master lacked most of those qualities when they were students. and btw looking at you do fu hok reminded me of craig lee, who you resemble. also, regarding the positive comments regarding Sifu Chin's school history thank you. maybe some reconciliation for those who want it can be accomplished discussing previous errors in private. every school/family has their issues and i'm sure ours were not much different than most; however my opinion is that sifu chin will rest better at peace if we focused our time and energy on the positive.


Walter thank you, it's a privilege because i love jow ga!
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