Hap Ga "Wing-Flap" Technique - Wong Yan Lam

[Daifong]

So, this account, originally published in the "Gwok Ga Morning Post" of Hong Kong (back in the 1950's), is similar but different from other stories we hear of the relationship between Wong Yan Lam and Wong Hon Wing, and their effect on the martial arts of Southern China:

http://naamkyun.com/2012/03/the-wing-fl ... ng-yanlam/

Any thoughts?



Best,

Michael

[PM]

well, all i can say - cool story! it confirms how important the skill of "Seven Stars" is. no wonder my gungfu cousin has said that my school could be nicknamed "Seven Stars Gym" - we drill these A LOT (stationary drills, with footwork, 2-man drills, pad drills, application drills, self-defense scenarios, free sparring... )

question: Wan Sing Sau 运星手, what is it? Saam Sing Lin Waan?

(top secret info as bonus: just wait guys, this is just sneak preview of something much bigger comming soon no worries sihing, i will not say a word, even if they would torture me ha ha)

[crazedjustice888]

It was an interesting read. I will ask my sifu what he knows regarding the subject. However, I am wanting to ask. Why is LSW SO bent over in that pic? In sifus hop gar we don't lean any at all when throwing the long hands due to keeping the spine straight which allows for faster spinning therefore faster punches.

Not criticism, just wondering. I also notice that in all hung gar long punches most people do them with a lean, some exaggerated others not so much. What is everyones thoughts on this?

[Daifong]

[crazedjustice888]

[PM]

cool additional info guys!

crazy88 - please ask Chin sifu about Wan Sing Sau 运星手 as well; i would love to see Hap Ga Seven Stars as well. any info is very appreciated!

[crazedjustice888]

[Rising Crane]

Nice discussion, guys! Really good to see this kind of exchange, that's what forums are really for

Just to add my 2 cents (it's pence really, coz I'm in England..)

In the Deng Family Hop Gar there is frequently a body lean. Our reverse wing arm "Farn Pok Yik" is exactly the same as the Lam SaiWing picture. The important thing is not to bend from the waist but to lean with the whole body ("Deng Ging"). A straight line from the head to the rear heel for the forward bend or the lead foot for the backward bend. An example is a boxer ducking under a hook- bending from the waist would be dangerous in a fight because of knee/snap down/guillotine etc. A better method would be to keep the neck strong and change level with the hips to avoid a hook. Imagine the same thing laterally: Move off line and attack the incoming limb from underneath. If you angle outside, you can attack the elbow joint. If you angle inside, you can deflect the incoming strike with the top of the forearm and possibly hit under the chin with the back knuckles in the same motion. That is how I understand the technique shown in the photo.

To be honest- I can't see how this technique alone would defeat the opponent in a fight, rather it sets up a chuen choi from the outside or a pow/kup from the inside. These strikes have much more 'stopping power' than the wing flap!

[crazedjustice888]

I talked to my sifu and he said that the story concerning the teaching of the wing flip was true. My sifu said that after Won Han Wing (sp?) beat two or three sifus they all went to Wong Yan Lum and thats where the techniques were transferred. I remember my sifu said techniques as in plural as opposed to technique but he did say the double wing flip punch was one of them. Before I could continue he had to start his tai chi class and that was painful posting...I will be feeling that in tomorrow...

So yeah, but he did comment on how over time different styles have used it differently then how we use it. Pretty much just stating what I brought up before. I personally like the single wing flip since when I do a double I do not like the pull in my chest since it slows down my strike. As rising crane pointed out the wing flip punch isn't that strong so I need it to be as fast as possible for me, but everyone does it differently and my sifu is an advocate of every needs to find their own way. Hope this sheds at least some light on something.

[Daifong]

Pavel,

I don't know why you keep on about Wan Sing Sau, or even the Chut Sing Lin Wan Kau. As the article plainly states, the "Wing Flip/ Flap" Pok Yik Sau has already made these techniques "obsolete"!


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CJ888,

Please thank your Sifu for corroborating/ clarifying this story. As he is probably already aware, Chu Yu Chaai and Saanyan were popular martial art story writers back in the day, promoting martial art for the public interest, including written material, plots and characters for the old Wong Feihung television series (WFH, as played by Pak Hok Pai stylist, Kwan Tak Hing). They obviously had an interesting picture, and half a story, and decided to go with it...or to just not go into that much detail, so that the story could be told, but "protect the innocent".

I notice that you mention Grandmaster Chin was specific in that it was "just two or three Sifus beaten up", which lays to rest the notion that this was just a way to make everybody find his teacher and "pay for lessons", lol.
Also noted, thank you, that it was several techniques which were taught, not just the Pok Yik Sau,
which would make sense, to a large extent, for the reason that our friend Rising Crane has mentioned.

That being said, there is no substitute for hard training, with serious intent. You build up a fighter, you make him strong and confident. Performance martial artists won't understand this.


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Rising Crane,

I must admit that this has been a personal frustration to me, as Hap Kyun folk are always saying "we don't know what you're doing leaning over like that"...and then I see them doing it themselves. Lol!

I like your applications, and I agree with you entirely about the body-form. Not just "Upright" (Jing), but " Back-Leaning" (Yeung), and "Forward-Leaning" (Fu) as well. With machetes, spears, superior numbers, size and reach, it is impossible to just plow straight through everyone. "Divide and conquer", you have to draw their fire, you have to make their structure "wrong", for sure.

Now, Lam Saiwing was about 45 years of age when this photo was taken (in 1905, about 5 years before my Sigung Lam Cho was born). This is almost immediately following the Luk Sin theater incident, in which Lam Sai Wing, Tang Fong and Tang Yi beat up a phenomenal number of opponents. This should not be difficult to corroborate, as the injured were patched up in the Dit Da clinic of none other than Ho Juk Lam (何竹林), the father of Wong Yan Lam student Ho Leung Hin (何良显):

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1241837.htm

That is why I don't think Lam Saiwing simply changed this "just because", and now "Hung Ga folks all just practice wrong". What I believe is, this is precisely how he learned these skills, and I highly doubt he learned this from "just anybody". Not only from Wong Feihung, but from the Hap Ga folks as well. After all, they were all Guangdung Sap Fu and their descendants.

Anyway, I agree with you, the Pok Yik Sau is very good, but not all that the writers make it out to be. For one thing,
I also have a mightily hard time envisioning 2-3 Sifus "who had no prior basis in reality" learning a minimum of
Hap Kyun footwork and the Pok Yik Sau alone, then effectively make a formidable Hap Kyun fighter "just go away", simply by smacking his elbows with Pok Yik Sau.

Let's refer to the example of Sifu Heintzman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUoJ9RkaQnw

The article doesn't mention the "other" techniques Grandmaster Chin made reference to, but I would hope at least the Chyun Choi and Gwa Kup!



Best regards,

Michael Goodwin
http://www.sfhunggar.com

[PM]

excellent!

[Rising Crane]

Daifong: Good point, I completely agree. I did not know that Lam Sai Wing studied Hap Gar. I knew Wong Fei Hong cross trained. He was friends with my Sifu's Grandfather, Deng Long. There are some stories about them getting into fights together...

My Sifu wrote some 'Kyun Kuet' on a fan (his hobby is calligraphy) one of the lines was "Yau Si Foo, Yau Si Yeung, Si Si Yau Ding Ging" 'Sometimes lean forward, sometimes lean backwards, but always stable'

Best wishes,
David

[Daifong]

[Rising Crane]

Oh, yes. I hadn't thought of that

[Daifong]

See Pok Yik Sau in action at 01:45:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpYXK6QE ... ture=share